re: How to approach DVCam clones of DVCPro HD 720p24 masters?

Okay, the project I've been asking about for a couple of months is here. I hope the gurus will have the time and patience to point me in the right direction. My heartfelt gratitude in advance.

Footage was shot on the Panasonic Varicam. The DP says he shot on DVCPro HD 720p24. To avoid a deck rental and hardware purchases, we got a deal to transfer the footage to DVCam so I can use my DSR-11 for capturing and recapturing, with hopes to online later using the DVCPro masters.

The first set of three DVCam tape transfers arrived yesterday. After consulting with Shane Ross, I was advised to capture the DVCam tapes using the "Remove Advanced Pulldown and/or Duplicate Frames During Capture From Firewire Sources" option under Capture Presets. This option is supposed to produce 23.98 clips I can edit in a 23.98fps timeline.

This system is FCP4.5, OSX 10.3.9, QuickTime 6.5.2, Cinema Tools 2.2.

I had made new user-defined sets of Sequence and Capture Presets as follows:

Sequence Preset:
NTSC DV Frame Size 720x480
Anamorphic 16:9 OFF (transfer guy made the footage letterboxed, despite my specific instructions to the contrary, so 16:9 no more)
Pixel Aspect Ratio NTSC - CCIR 601/DV
Editing Timebase 23.98
Timecode Rate - Same as Editing Timebase
Compressor: DV/DVCPro
Audio: 48.000kHz

Capture Preset:
NTSC DV Frame Size 720x480
Anamorphic 16:9 OFF
Video - Digitizer DV Video, Input DSR-11, Compressor DV/DVCPro, 29.97fps
Remove Advanced Pulldown option ON

Here's where things get interesting.

I captured two clips as a test. The above settings produced clips that, when checked using APPLE-9, were still at 29.97fps. Putting these into the 23.98fps timeline, not surprisingly, produced a red render bar. This seems not to be the correct way to do this.

So I did two other tests:

a) Using Cinema Tools 2.2, I reverse telecined the 29.97fps clip above to produce a clip I will call "04-01B-01 REVERSE TELECINE";
b) Then I modified Capture and Device Control Presets to 23.98fps. The only other change made to the presets was that in the Capture Preset, Remove Advanced Pulldown option is now greyed out. I made a copy of the log of this clip, made it independent from the other version, and captured it from tape. I will call this "04-01B-01 23.98fps".

Well, one or more of these two methods must be wrong, because the clips produced are of the same length, but have different timecodes. The timecodes match up every second, but the one captured at 23.98fps skips a frames 2, 7, 12, 17, 22 and 27 during every second. The reverse telecined clip has continuous 24fps (I suppose this is actually 23.98fps) timecode.

I put the two clips one over each other in the 23.98fps timeline and compared them using a split-screen. The image on each frame is the same, except that the 23.98fps version still appears to be interlaced because in a split-screen compared with the reverse telecined clip, the 23.98fps side bounces. De-interlacing the 23.98fps clip using a filter (set to Upper) makes the split-screen imperceptible.

The sound between the two clips is also off by about 16 frames, with the reversed telecined clip being 16 frames behind.

So the question is...what exactly is the right way to tackle this footage?

I'm not going to pretend to know anything here -- I can't tell which version is going to give me an online-ready timeline, allowing me to edit at 23.98fps and later go back to the DVCPro HD tapes. I also have never used Cinema Tools before. If I do need to reverse telecine this footage, how do I create a batch list? How do I set up the Cinema Tools session? Which settings do I use?

1) you can't use remove advance pulldown cuz your DVCams are using a 2:3:2:3 and not 2:3:3:2 cadence.

2) you can't capture 23.98 directly from tape via FW cuz that isn't available - you have to use a capture card to do this in real time.

3) you're only option is to capture in 29.97 and then reverse telecine via cinema tools. After you reverse tele, import the new 23.98 clip into your 23.98 sequence.

This clip should correspond to your masters. Of course the only way to check this is to playback your masters.

-CHL

Oh ho ho...so the Advance Pulldown Removal is ONLY for the cameras that shoot 24PA...huh? Ah...Well then.

At least you can still reverse telecine with Cinema Tools. Looks like I led you astray, but not TOO FAR astray.

> At least you can still reverse telecine with Cinema Tools. Looks like I led you
> astray, but not TOO FAR astray.

Hey, that's what tests are for! Boy, am I glad I didn't just blast through all the clips. I appreciated you taking the time to suggest options, Shane. I'm going to continue to approach this cautiously. I'm back to newbie status here.

Thanks for the explanations, Chi-Ho. Really appreciate them. Can I check a couple of things with you?

a) From your explanation, it seems all my capture settings should be at 29.97 without any pulldown options checked, as if it were "normal" NTSC DV footage, right?

b) Do I need to create a database at all in Cinema Tools? The options appear to be mostly for film, and for importing flex files, which don't exist in my case. Or am I misreading the options?

c) For the reverse telecine, what are the correct options? For last night's test, I did:

All files were captured as F1-F2 (I *think* this means lower-field dominant and is correct?)
Conform to 23.98
Keep Originals ON
Standard upper/lower ON

d) Is there a way to batch-reverse-TC all the clips? There should be, though I can't find it. (Ten minutes later...never mind, I found the option. Didn't look hard enough)

e) I've heard people refer to "reconnecting" to their reverse-telecined clips. But I've always been queasy about reconnecting batch-list entries to a file that the entry didn't create itself (modifying timecodes, etc). Can I simply import the .rev versions into the Browser and edit with those? Would the metadata stay intact? A test just now seems to suggest it would, the only column being missing is Log Notes, and I can easily copy/paste those. Or, perhaps I should make a complete duplicate set of log entries, make them master clips, then reconnect those to the .rev versions?

f) Does the sound get converted at the same time? We don't have an external sound source -- all sound is going straight into the DVCPro masters and the DVCam transfers came with sound.

g) Finally, when I online using the 23.98fps timeline I edit with, how would I be capturing from the DVCPro tapes? Would I have to capture the entire clips from DVCPro in 29.97fps, then reverse-telecine those so they would match the timeline? If the online station isn't mine and has a capture card, could we do Advanced Pulldown Removal on the fly? (I'll probably be backing up like mad -- mistakes will be very likely.)

I've told the director that I'll be sending him a test -- one scene we're trying to cut ahead of the others. I'll go through the whole process, produce a 23.98fps timeline that's only one scene long, then attempt to online that from the DVCPro HD masters.

Whew! A light in the dark.

This should be relatively straightforward - no need to make this so complicated, unless I'm missing something. Your DVCAM tapes are simply NTSC downconverts. So ...

1] Capture DVCAM tapes as you would normally - at 29.97 through firewire
2] Use CT to reverse telecine each take - use default settings to wind up at 23.98 (since there is no ALE file, you'll have to manually determine the 'A' frame in order to reverse telecine correctly)
3] Relink the clips back to the new 23.98 media in FCP
4] There is no change of speed to the audio - 29.97 and 23.98 is the same speed so audio is fine
5] Your new 23.98 clips have 24 frame t/c so your EDL's will match the DVCPROHD masters

Because of the way the varicam treats audio - all sound is 2 frames out of synch on the tapes - it's two frames earlier than video. You may want to resynch clips in FCP and them make new clips to edit with.

> Use CT to reverse telecine each take - use default settings to wind up at
> 23.98 (since there is no ALE file, you'll have to manually determine the 'A'
> frame in order to reverse telecine correctly)

OK, I'm guessing what you mean by "A frame" is the first frame in the 2:3:2:3 set. How do I "determine" this? Does it mean the In point of every clip when I log has to be an A frame? Also, how can I know whether a certain non-interlaced frame is part of the first 2:3 pair or the next?

I read an Editor's Guild article that talks about safety precautions when using Cinema Tools to import ALE files, then making 24fps footage using reverse TK:

[www.editorsguild.com]

But I was always under the impression A frames only existed in film. Was I wrong?

I also remember reading an article (Andrew Balis, I believe?) that tells us Varicam footage using slow-motion needs to be given special treatment. Any experiences with that?

HD footage shot at 24 or 23.98 goes through a 3:2 interleave when downconverted to NTSC just as film does in telecine. So, A-B-C-D on an HD tape gets turned into AA-BB-BC-CD-DD on NTSC tape.

If there is no burn in data to help you determine the A frame, you can single step through a clip in Cinema Tools and look for a BC frame. You can usually see a BC frame quite easily - it literally is 2 frames combined as one - you see a slight double image with jaggies. The more motion in the frame the easier it is to see. Once you determine the BC frame, leave Cinema Tools parked on that frame and change the A frame choice in Cinema Tools to BC and then reverse telecine. It should reverse telecine correctly now that you are telling it that this frame is BC.

You won't be able to BATCH reverse telecine as each clip needs to be manually determined so this will get quite tedious to reverse telecine each clip one at a time.

If I were in your position I would do the following to make the workflow much more efficient:

1] Capture each video tape as 1 whole clip. Capture as 29.97 Each clip will be an entire tape.

2] Determine the BC frame for the entire clip and reverse telecine the entire clip to 23.98 (if you have 30 video tapes, that's just 30 clips - a lot better than 500-1000 clips)

But FCP does not like clips of long duration in a big project - things get sluggish, and making subclips does not solve the problem, so ...

3] Using FCP, edit the clip into a new sequence
4] Modify time code of sequence to equal the time code of the clip
5] Razor blade the clip into individual takes
6] Drag all the individual takes from the timeline back to the browser
7] Use media manager to create brand new 23.98 media
8] Delete the original media
9] Import the new media clips
10] Change the video reel in the browser to give the QT file the correct reel meta data
11] Resynch all clips to fix 2 frame audio offset of varicam

Ready to edit.

Lot's of work to set up for editing - but that's the way it goes on a feature. I think the 2nd workflow is more efficient, but either way it is lots of prep work.

You might want to get a good assistant editor.



Post Edited (11-09-05 09:24)

Thank God it's not a feature -- it's a short. If it were a feature, I probably would've told the producers to either hire an assistant editor or to have a lab do it! It would be a good experience to go through, though.

Now, would this process of locating the A frame have to be repeated at the online stage? The DVCPro tapes are also at 29.97fps and I'm guessing they would have to be reverse TKed as well?

One more thing: In the logging process, I've noticed that it's difficult to spot the BC and CD frames in the 2:3:2:3 pattern if I look at my external monitor, but I can notice the interlacing waviness in the BC/CD pair in the Log and Capture window. If I were to make sure every log I perform is on an A frame (ie. two frames back from the first interlaced frame in the interlaced pair), and capture without handles, theoretically speaking wouldn't I be able to batch-reverse-telecine multiple clips using the AA frame option in Cinema Tools?

From my experiences, the A frame should be the 0 frame and the 5th frame.

And batch reverse telecine should find the A frame for you. It will trim each clip by a few frames to the first A frame.

For my feature, I logged each clip from each tape and batch reverse each tape one at a time.

My experience was from HDCam not DVCProHD though...

"e) I've heard people refer to "reconnecting" to their reverse-telecined clips. But I've always been queasy about reconnecting batch-list entries to a file that the entry didn't create itself (modifying timecodes, etc). Can I simply import the .rev versions into the Browser and edit with those? Would the metadata stay intact? A test just now seems to suggest it would, the only column being missing is Log Notes, and I can easily copy/paste those. Or, perhaps I should make a complete duplicate set of log entries, make them master clips, then reconnect those to the .rev versions?"

You got it exactly right. To keep the log note info, dupe as master clips and reconnect to the 23.98 media and the clips will update its Ins and Outs to reflect 23.98 TC.

"I've noticed that it's difficult to spot the BC and CD frames in the 2:3:2:3 pattern if I look at my external monitor"

This shouldn't be - the interlace flickering should be very obvious as compared to the A or B frame. Perhaps it's a steady shot? Try a shot with a lot of motion....

"The DVCPro tapes are also at 29.97fps and I'm guessing they would have to be reverse TKed as well?"

Do you mean the DVCProHD masters? I thought you said they were shot at 23.98? Regardless, DVCProHD runs at 60fps. And if you set the capture at 23.98 (there may be a deck menu setting as well...consult your manual : ), then you should at a one to one relationship to the masters...

CHL

Hey Chi-Ho, thanks for all your detailed advice. It's been a great education.

> From my experiences, the A frame should be the 0 frame and the 5th
> frame.

Yes indeed, and the Cinema Tools manual supports this, just as it supports your assertion that Cinema Tools should be able to trim the clips for me to the A frame. Since I've been logging every In point as the A frame (I don't think I'll sleep easy unless I can spot those interlaced 3rd and 4th frames by eye), the logs made from Cinema Tools haven't shown any clips to be in need of trimming.

> For my feature, I logged each clip from each tape and batch reverse each
> tape one at a time.

Yep, that's what I'm doing right now. If I *&^% up, I've only lost half an hour's worth of footage, not 12. Trepidation, trepidation...

> You got it exactly right. To keep the log note info, dupe as master clips and
> reconnect to the 23.98 media and the clips will update its Ins and Outs to
> reflect 23.98 TC.

Yep, that's worked real well this morning. I'm keeping the originals and reversed TKs in separate bins. When I have enough tapes reverse-TKed, I'll probably create a new project file for the DVCam original 29.97 clips and logs.

> This shouldn't be - the interlace flickering should be very obvious as
> compared to the A or B frame.

It's been much easier to spot since I figured out to look at an enlarged Log and Capture window rather than try to spot it on my external TV. After all, it's not a broadcast monitor, just a Toshiba flatscreen TV.

> Do you mean the DVCProHD masters? I thought you said they were shot at
> 23.98? Regardless, DVCProHD runs at 60fps. And if you set the capture at
> 23.98 (there may be a deck menu setting as well...consult your manual : ),
> then you should at a one to one relationship to the masters...

I think so. Tell me if this makes sense: I think the guy who did the DVCPro-DVCam dubs for me cloned the timecode correctly based on this rationale: The A frames so far have been falling on the 0 and 5 frames without fail, as I imagine they should on the DVCPro masters. If he *hadn't* cloned the timecode properly, then they could be falling anywhere, right?

Which means at the online stage, if I use the 29.97fps DVCam logs and create a DVCPro version of them using Media Manager, if I capture the same clips from the DVCPro tapes and then use the exact same reverse-telecine process
as used on the DVCam versions, the timecodes should be morphed in the same way and they should reconnect. Does that make sense? Or should I be using the 23.98fps clips (produced from the reverse telecine) to capture directly from DVCPro using on-the-fly pulldown removal?

Regardless, I'm planning to send my director one scene's worth of a 23.98fps timeline and try to go back to the DVCPro masters with that, as a test. If we're doing anything wrong now, it'd be nice to find out.

Thanks a great deal to Shane, Mitch, Graeme and Chi-Ho for all your help! I'd like to include you in the thank-you credits at the end, if that's all right. I'll keep you guys updated about our progress.

Man....go to sleep for a feew hours and look what happens.

Glad there are so many people who can help.

" If he *hadn't* cloned the timecode properly, then they could be falling anywhere, right?"

I believe so. I think it is standard to have the A frame 0 and 5th frame. I believe every house will give you that and if they don't you should be able to request another set of telecine.


"Which means at the online stage, if I use the 29.97fps DVCam logs and create a DVCPro version of them using Media Manager, if I capture the same clips from the DVCPro tapes and then use the exact same reverse-telecine process
as used on the DVCam versions, the timecodes should be morphed in the same way and they should reconnect. Does that make sense? "

No need. You should be able to pull out 23.98 clips directly from the 1200A deck.

"Or should I be using the 23.98fps clips (produced from the reverse telecine) to capture directly from DVCPro using on-the-fly pulldown removal?"

Set your 23.98 offline sequence to media manager - create offline to a 23.98 DVCProHD sequence and then batch capture. Set your capture setting to DVCProHD 720p24 48khz. It should just capture 23.98 frames off the masters.

" I'd like to include you in the thank-you credits at the end, if that's all right. "

I'd be honored.

"I'll keep you guys updated about our progress."

Please do.

Take care,

CHL

A couple of things to keep in mind:

The 'A' frame is not an issue at the online. If you are editing 23.98 on FCP, you will want to online from the HD tapes. The EDL from FCP will be a 24 frame EDL that matches the HD tapes. (Cinema tools changes the t/c from 30 to 24 when your reverse telecine.)

But if you want to online from the NTSC downconverts (why you would do that, I don't know), you will have to run your FCP EDL through CT and convert it back to a 30 frame EDL to match your DVCAM tapes.

'A' frames are not part of this process.

Also, 'A' frames falling on time codes that end in :00 or :05 is SOP for film telecines. I don't know if that holds true for NTSC downconverts. If it does, that's great. Just begin all your captures on :00 or :05.

> No need. You should be able to pull out 23.98 clips directly from the 1200A
> deck

Boy, that's nice to know, not having to go through another set of reverse telecine. I just got B.I.T.A. (bitten in the arse) a little this morning. The classic -- what the Chinese call "Flip your cart on a nice flat road, flip your boat in a ditch", ie. get the tough parts done only to screw up on a little thing. I'd logged two clips as video-only and forgotten to change the setting back for the rest of the tape. It was after reverse TKing the clips that I found out. So I had to dump the clips manually (SHIFT-D is a lovely thing), reorganize the Cinema Tools-generated file management, recapture the 29.97fps versions, reverse TK those, the whole shebang.

Good reason not to get too cocky in this process.

Very educational thread guys. Thanks. Plenty of pitfalls with 24P, film and telecine.

Derek, you're lucky to have such great advice. ;-)

Make sure you back that project file up the web or that USB stick nightly. It'd be a real bummer if you corrupted that project file.

Best,
Kevin Monahan
Author, "Motion Graphics and Effects in Final Cut Pro"
Only 2 Days Left to Sign Up for my FCP Master's Seminar in LA THIS WEEKEND!

Nightly? Every three hours, usually, sometimes as often as once every 20 minutes! Without Autosave, that's pretty much uncontestable. I'm a backup demon -- three copies of my current project file at any given time, plus three to five copies of project files, dated (with 24-hour time built into the file names), that reflect my progress each day, cloned to two separate locations.

Nobody, myself included, can be told to save and backup too often.

Sorry I got that wrong. I thought you didn't have a regular back up plan.
As to your backup scheme?

Amen to that brother. AMEN.

Kevin Monahan
Not too late to take my class in LA! Walk ins welcome.