Back to the subject of HD-CAM masters... can't I rent a deck and make masters myself?

Looking around it costs $800 bucks to make an HD-Cam master of my film.

It seems I should have everything I need to make an HD master here at my cutting studio.

FCP6 - AJA for output - can't I just rent a deck and go to town?

Tell me what I'm missing, I just look back on the old days when people used to pay top dollar just to have a CD made and if there's a simpler less expensive route I'd love to discover it.

Thanks,

Geno

Yeah, you can rent a deck. Just wait till you see how much it costs.



Michael Horton
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Okay, Michael, I'll bite?

For the day can it cost more than a few hundred bucks?

And more importantly, IF I DID PULL SOME STRINGS and could get one, do I have here what I need to make an HD-CAM master? Is it as simple as PLAY VIDEO and press record?

Or do I have to have more software I don't know of, PLUS some other thingamajig to go with the AJA, etc. etc. etc.?

Please advise...

g-

I think the cheapest I've seen is $600 a day for a VTR that records. Thats at Visionary Forces here in LA. I'm no expert on mastering so don't ask me what more you need.

Michael Horton
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Geno,

I think $800 is a bargain, go with it.

Quote

Is it as simple as PLAY VIDEO and press record?

No its not, so do the above.

Peter

$800 is a good deal. Most decks will cost at least $600/day, if you can get one for cheaper, 1 piece of 2 hour stock could easily cost another $100, and then you will fight to get the deck settings all correct for your output. That means after you drop frames all day, you will have to rent the deck for a second day and try again.

Do you have the equipment? What do you have? What format is your source? What are you delivery specs? Not play video and push record, edit to tape frame accurate...big difference.

Michael Gossen
Helium Digital Media
Pixel Dust Digital

HDCAM Decks...the BEST I have found is $750 a day...and I was getting a deal. Typically $1000 a day. And then the tape stock...that isn't cheap. $160 for 90-min.

Then you need to operate the deck. This deck is 10 times more complex than a digibeta deck. TWO menus...and lots of sub menus. Really takes an engineer to operate.

$800 to walk away with a final master? That is a great deal. One that I do all the time. I still master/output at the DR Group. Let them handle things while I sit back and drink coffee.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Okay, you're starting to scare me...

According to the guys I spoke with at Visionary Forces, I could come out of the back of the AJA IOHD via SDI, hit play on the timeline and record into the deck, the F-500 and output the film. That deck rental is $400 a day.

I found 90 minute tape stock for $72.00 (The film is 88 minutes.)

My naive thinking is I could rent the deck on a Friday, burn 6 copies over the weekend return the deck on Monday and have 6 copies for the same $842 bucks.

But you're saying no way. I'm pretty stupid, but not stupid enough to not take good advice from those who've been here before.

So would I need to take all my media drives in and suffer the cost of a SET UP and FCP Engineer fee on TOP of the $800? I'm pretty sure that would be the case.

If I make one copy, can I make dubs somewhere cheaper? Trust me, I'm receiving the fair warning and I'm now NOT going to do the rental route... just want to be clear on what I'm paying for.

Any more thoughts or clarification?

g-

I don't know if this applies to you or not, but renting an HDCAM deck, particularly one you aren't familiar is pretty tough sledding.

We did that once, and even thought we were warned about the menu settings (in some cases they run five menu buttons deep), we thought we were pretty smart, having laid off to all kinds of other decks (eg Sony DVW-A500).

Needless to say, it took us the whole day to figure it out, even though the layoff was simple.

And forget about the manual, it's not very practical.

If you do rent one, I'd ask the company you're renting from to make sure they set it up before delivery (as far as frame rate etc. goes). Better yet, have somebody show you and take comprehensive notes.

Not impossible, but potentially very very frustrating.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, don't these decks require a different Black Burst Generator signal than SD?

Good catch...yes, they need Black Burst...and special black burst, not the Horita SD kind. You need a TriSync black burst generator.

Gino...all I can say is that it isn't as easy as it sounds. I am a knowledgeable guy...I can handle a digibeta deck...I have output hundreds of hours of broadcast content...but that deck confuses me. Unless you have a while to devote to figuring out that machine, and someone showing you what to do...don't do it. I had someone show me, and I can't remember half of it. If someone types out instructions for you, then you might be in better shape. But you still need that trisync generator.

YOu may think you are saving money, but in the end, it might cost more. And yeah, as for tape stock, I needed 120 min, so mine was more. Plus I INSIST on Sony, and only buy from reputable places. Been stuck by off brand and "grey market" too hard to not insist.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Our on-line editor used to do outputs to HDCAM SR and D5 at the same time. I agree with all of the advice here, these decks are freaking complicated. And yes, you definitely need tri-level sync. And yes, the FCP part is easy but the deck part is not. Remember how to black and code your masters, you are looking at a day and half to just prep the tapes for your six layoffs.

I did layoffs to DBeta the other day, cake. But HDCAM and or D5? It's a big deal. This is one of the reasons good on-line editors can command $1,200.00 per day, they have know all of this stuff. Soon all of us will be delivering a giant QuickTime on a drive for everything, then we can do away with tape, tri-level sync, TC issues, etc. Can't wait. After living in the P2 world for the past two years, doing an edit to tape seemed so "early 2,000s", if you know what I mean?

Hire a pro to do it or take it to a good post house. There are places in LA that you just bring your drive to and they do the rest. It's worth it.

Dan

Why do you NEED an HDCAM Master anyway? Why not keep it digital? Put it on it's own G-RAID or FirewireVR until you NEED a tape Master (then have it done by a facility - screw rental for a one-off).

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Joey, that's a good take.

1) It seems safer to me to have at least one master of the movie on a solid tape. I've owned drives on top of drives on top of drives and at some point they all seem to go bad. Hate to have the final final final of my feature only on a hard drive.

2) We looked into mastering to a HD DVD or BLU-RAY. Now that was REALLY expensive.

3) We're doing our first screening in January and I'd love to throw a HI DEF TAPE into a machine and press play. I could drag a drive down, or my computer, figure out the outputs and run from my computer into their projection unit... no way! Just want to throw in a HI DEF VERSION of the movie to project it as beautifully as possible.

4) We shot this thing in HI DEF. I've screened my last 3 films at festivals from a standard DVD. I always have 35mm reel envy when those guys show up. Everyone gives them the major attention. Many of the festivals now are screening films from HD CAM so if we shot it HI DEF, it only makes sense we have a master we cn play back in hi def for the festivals.

From what I've read HD CAM makes the most sense. I guess my last concern is that if I make one HD CAM master, doesn't someone in town make dups? It can't cost me another $800 to $1000 for a second, third or fourth copy could it?

g-

Whatever the format, plain ol' tape-to-tape dubs should only cost you machine time and tape stock.

You could look into buying your own tape stock and avoiding the inevitable 30% markup on that. In the facilities I'm familiar with, that does get you a lower price overall, but it also affects your level of customer service. The guy paying the 30% premium gets pushed to the front of the line almost always.

I use taperesources.com for my oxide needs....

I'm sure others, or you, have other vendors, but just in case...

deb

"It can't cost me another $800 to $1000 for a second, third or fourth copy could it? "

If it's HDCAM sr, yes, it can!

The HDCAM sr deck costs around $100K. It takes at least 2 of them to make a dub. You're tieing up almost a quarter of a million dollars of equipment for two hours to make a single dub. That's gonna get pricey.

HDCAMsr has become the defacto delivery format for many programs due to the fact that it can handle all the audio configurations on one tape.

HDCAM has more limited audio channel capability, and if you're doing a 5.1 mix, you're only going to be able to fit the dolby encoded mix on the tape, not the discreet channels.

Getting your project onto a TAPE MASTER is a crucial step in the commercial life of your project. Anybody who's looking to buy/exhibit/evaluate your film DOESN'T want to hear about "firewire drives" or "Quicktime movies". They either want a 35mm print or an HD master with specific audio configurations. I'd suggest that you do whatever it takes to get it onto tape. Frankly, you're probably better off having a post house do it for you.

Mark

Assuming that the film is under 94 minutes, we (Clonetown) can do this master for about $650. Clones of the same length are $540. Call do discuss (323) 850-6608 or browse us at clone-town.com

Mike Klinger
Tree Falls Post/Clonetown
Los Angeles

While I don't disagree with the economic realities of renting vs going to a facility, I fall into the rental camp. Now mind you I am both and editor and engineer, and am pretty familiar with both HDCam machines and the new SR's. Yes, there are some menu options, but a good rental house should be able to walk you thru the setups.

No you don't need a sync generator, bi-level or tri-level. Professional VTR's can be set to sync to input video. As a matter of fact for a simple record this is the recommended setting.

You will probably have a few frustrating moments the first time or two you try this, but you will never learn if you don't try.

-Vance

Great talking Mike.

Thank you!

www.coldplaythemovie.com

Good to know. Thanks Vance

Michael Horton
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Good take Vance.

Under most situations I'm of the elk to bite the bullet and swim in the deep end of the learning curve.

This time around I got a good feeling from Mike at Clone Town. Because I don't have the luxury of time, and because his price seems very reasonable, I think we won't go the rental route. But I do appreciate a comment from someone who does see the other side.

Thanks,

Geno

Glad we are going to be able to help you Geno. Talk to you in a couple of weeks.

As a matter of sharing tech information -- going with input video for reference is not only one way to do it -- but for those of us using the Kona card it is actually the ONLY way that it will work properly between HDCAM and Kona Card.

Since we have tri-sync we still reference Kona card to tri-sync on output but on a layoff to HDCAM we set the deck to look at the Kona's video out as out servo reference.

Aja has a white paper on this. Though the paper was written for the f500 it also relates to SRW models. The link is below:

[www.aja.com]

Mike Klinger
Tree Falls Post/Clonetown
Los Angeles

Thanks...

One question. Many of these guys are talking about the importance of Frame accuracy from your 1080i footage to HD CAM master.

Does your stuff include making sure that the layoff is frame accurate or is what you do different from what everyone's been describing here?

Thanks for letting me know.

g-