Avid and FCP offline workflow...

Andy Neil Wrote:

>
> I could use Avid and spend more money on it, but,
> for me, for my workflow, it´s actually cheaper
> than FCP and lots of hard-drives.
>
> I find that extremely hard to believe considering
> what an Avid Media Composer costs in hardware
> alone. Photo-JPEG at 35% is about equivalent to
> 15:1 in file size so you'd likely need nearly as
> many harddrives for your Avid workflow as you
> would for FCP.
>
> Just how would it be cheaper?

Andy, if you´ve read all my posts you know I only work in dv, so I don´t need Avid hardware.

Personally I get really tired of hearing "[insert anything here] is so expensive and it's not fair and I can't afford to [insert something here]". It's television (and/or movies). It's expensive. And it's couple of million dollars cheaper than it used to be only a few years ago. If your main modus operandi is to tell your stories cheaply, write a book.

This is not just directed at you, Flavio.

Quote

They always get so defensive, and they feel atacked when someone pronounce the word Avid. Maybe this is because most FCP users have never worked with an Avid. Of course, you won´t admit this happens.

Last word on this subject...

Just to be clear...I have read all your posts...and you should do your homework before making blanket statements about FCP users. There are A LOT of FCP users here that are Avid converts / dual platform Editors (me included) and it's just the opposite of what you are saying... it's the Avid community that SHREDS FCP USERS treating them as non-editors / amateurs.

Regarding "telling me something about the Avid Community Forums" and how friendly they are over there... I was a Moderator in the Avid Community forums. I spoke too much about FCP's positive aspects and the admins didn't like the threads about the competition...so they asked me to leave (not very "fair & balanced". The arguments got so heated that Admins had to jump in and close threads. There's plenty of trolling going on over there.

The FCP community is a helpful CARING community, which is why the LAFCPUG is so popular & well loved.

BTW...I am also a license owner / User of Avid products so I know both sides of your argument.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Fair enough...

And I´m banned from the Apple FCP forums because of being critic about FCP.

I was not talking about LAFCPUG in particular, anyway. So, again, you get too defensive.

But here, a helpul and caring forum moderator like you, was acusing me of being a troll, wich was unfair and not kind.

Another guy did the same.

Flavio.

Haha... Fair enough... let's ease off Flavio for now.

There are some areas that i wished would be better developed in final cut. For one, scriptlogging, which i don't need right now, but I've seen it and it's something i'd use if i had an assistant and was working on long form drama/features. Next, would be the durability/reliability of the system- I've had weird stuff happen, like editing dvcpro hd and my SD broadcast mon would suddenly display FHA whenever i stop the playhead (it's a pain doing color correction when that happens), as well as having to thrash preferences to keep it running (on the older version of final cut), the offline/online workflow (i still don't trust it on clips with speed alterations), tweaking speed changes is still a hassle, next, when i select a bunch of clips, it selects more than the relevant transitions, so i have to individually deselect the clips just to move the chunk of stuff, next, also the non-backward compatibility of the systems, QT7.3, the new snapping behaviour, occasionally editing to tape goes off by 1 frame, etc...

Although, having read In the Blink of an Eye, it's amazing how far NLEs have come. All the bitching is just us trying (and at times, demanding) for the perfect system, and NLEs have really developed way faster than anyone would have expected it to. Of course, progress at such speeds would also mean uneven developments in some areas, but thankfully, none of the problems are really critical issues without workarounds.

Can't say the Avid's great either- for that price- i can't put a decent limiter on my audio mix, some not as powerful finishing tools, i haven't tried converting formats in the Avid but i don't expect anything great in that department, etc... some of the inbuilt features aren't half as powerful as what i'd get from a package at half the price (final cut)...

>>But here, a helpul and caring forum moderator like you, was acusing me of being a troll, wich was unfair and not kind.

Another guy did the same.
<<

I said I felt you were a troll, and I still believe it. You may not understand why you keep getting called a troll, but here's a couple of pointers of why you put my back up.

You said

- I am a big production house.
OK

- I only shoot in mini dv
Uh, OK. Seems a bit odd, but OK.

- I have to offline mini dv because it's too expensive to buy storage.
What? Offline mini DV? It's already tiny. Why on earth would you do that?

- I have 400 tapes in my system and more coming.
OK, here in Australia, mini DV tapes are about $7 a pop. So that's $2,800 in consumables. 400 man hours for a line producer, director, camera op, sound, possibly a presenter and so on? Lots of money. But lets just say you only sent a camera op - a cheap one - and you own all the gear - at a whole day rate of $400 a day - and you made him work 10 hours a day. That's $16,000. Capturing? 400 hours. At let's say assistant rate of $20 per hour. That's $8000.

So we are at $26,800 at the very least just to capture this stuff on mini dv with a single cheap camera operator in the field by himself and an assistant editor doing all the capture overnight while you're not using the machines, not counting what you spent on the camera gear, sound gear, editing system(s) and so on.

We won't mention writers, voice over artists, actual editing, music, copyright or any of those expensive things.

- I can't afford to keep buying storage.
So, you can spend easily in excess of $30,000 to produce it, but you can't spend around $300 each for enough hard drive space to store it at full res, which is only 12GB per hour of footage.

- Avid does this so much better.
OK. If you like it, great.

- I like FCP because it's cheap.
OK. If you like it, great.

And here's the rub. What is the question? All you've done is say you don't like FCP's offline codec, and annoyed (me personally) by whining that storage is expensive and you're too poor to own enough to do your job properly despite the fact that you are a broadcast production company.

I imagine this is why you get called a troll so often. If independent people tell you often enough that you're a troll, don't you think there may be the possibility that you're acting like one?

Woof...well said, Jude.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

> You said
>
> - I am a big production house.
> OK
>
> - I only shoot in mini dv
> Uh, OK. Seems a bit odd, but OK.
>
> - I have to offline mini dv because it's too
> expensive to buy storage.
> What? Offline mini DV? It's already tiny. Why on
> earth would you do that?
>


Hey, DV's big in Tahiti, okay!

Jude,

Sorry, but you don´t read very well, and you´re manipulating my words.

"I´m a big production house"

Who said that? I didn´t. I said: "I have a studio where we work in large projects"

"You can spend 30000 dollars to produce it..."

This is getting really stupid. Who said I produce it? Who said I´m a production house?

I have a studio where we edit. We only edit. Get it? So all your points are out of place, and anyway, you don´t have a clue about my market, my clients and my way of working.

And about offlining Dv:

Lots of studios offline dv. Lots. Like it or not.

It´s only two people calling me a troll. The rest of the people did positive comments I took note of. I said thank you for that before.

"Hey, DV's big in Tahiti, okay!"

Ofensive, silly, and out of place.

Now keep on the bashing.

Flavio.

I'm just telling you why you keep getting called a troll.

And if you are a studio who works on large projects, regardless of who produced the work, in my opinion, you need to be able to spend a few hundred dollars to do your job properly. Someone has spent at least $30,000 getting it on your machines. You are responsible for the rest.

OK...last words from me on this subject that is going nowhere...

Flavio,

It is you that does not read well. My exact words were "This is bordering on trolling now" so I personally haven't accused you of anything. You did happen to admit the following:

Quote

And I´m banned from the Apple FCP forums because of being critic about FCP.

People don't get BANNED for posting critical opinions of FCP unless they are rude & insulting to forum members or they keep a thread going by posting negative unproductive posts that spiral out of control (like this one) so maybe there's some truth in there. You only have 12 posts on the LACFPUG forum and you have already admitted to being banned from another forum. There's an old saying:

"You get more flies with honey, than with vinegar."

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

> It's only two people calling me a troll. The rest of the people did positive comments I took note
> of. I said thank you for that before.

Two people spoke up. The rest of us just kept quiet. Sorry, Flavio, you positioned yourself for this.

This is not just an "opinions" forum. This is a troubleshooting forum for Final Cut Pro users. You weren't looking for concrete solutions to your issues; you were just complaining. And you have the right to do that, but this isn't the place to do it. Write to Apple directly if you wish to rant about Final Cut Pro's shortcomings. But what good does it do to rant in here about how much you dislike Offline RT while rejecting all our proposed solutions?

You said, "How can I get better offline quality?" We said, "Capture at better quality, get more and better drive space." You said, "No, I don't like doing that...don't wanna buy the drive space...files too big...open-format timeline looks ugly...yada, yada, yada. Everybody, just admit I'm right and FCP has an ugly offline." In effect, you were calling all of us wrong. Well then, why ask us in the first place?


www.derekmok.com

Jesus Joe!,

you are such a manipulator.

Now you asume I´m banned from the Apple Forums because I was rude there... Funny...

If you were banned from the Avid forums is because they´re evil.

But:

If I was banned from the Apple forums is because I was rude an insulted forums moderators...

Right...

So, by "this is bordering trolling now" you didn´t really mean I was a troll. Sorry, didn´t get it properly. You are a very sincere guy.

And Derek; sorry, you´re wrong.

I didn´t attack anyone personally. I was defending myself.

"You said, "How can I get better offline quality?" We said, "Capture at better quality, get more and better drive space." You said, "No, I don't like doing that...don't wanna buy the drive space...files too big...open-format timeline looks ugly...yada, yada, yada. Everybody, just admit I'm right and FCP has an ugly offline." In effect, you were calling all of us wrong."

Wow, Derek, what an objetive way of condensing things! Maybe I said all that, but I´ve been nice all the time.

Anyway, let´s finish this, unless Joe wants to add his last words on the subjetc again.

If you do, Joe, e-mail me: flavio.g.garcia@gmail.com, as I don´t think anyone is interested in our little fight any more.

Flavio.

Ok. Enough folks. Take a breath and let this thread die. A lot of this is simple miscommunication and not worth it.

Michael Horton
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