PMW1 XDCAM - what's the best format to edit in?

I envision two types of output for what I want to do... output for broadcast TV or output that can be used to make a film print.

So what formats should I edit in?

For film print : 24 Progressive.
For TV : 29.97 FPS Interlace.

And the Codec I should use?

I am currently at a facility that is shooting on the XDCAM HD camera, and I have been trialing the Apple ProRes 422 codec with it. The quality is lovely and the file sizes are much smaller than expected. We are coming in via a Kona LH, converting to ProRes on ingest, then our via the Kona to whatever is required. It is a broadcast facility, so we need to be able to play out to HD and SD, as well as live over a router. Your requirements might be slightly different, but ProRes is looking very nice.

So far the workflow is pretty seamless, and you're out of long GOP, so less pressure on your system to cut it.

Sorry, made a mistake there. We are pulling in stuff from tape and other external sources via the Kona. All the XDCAM is coming in via the XDCAM Transfer utility. We are cutting in ProRes, though.

Is there a difference between the Pro Res H22 that is HDV/HD XDCAM only - in the render control it gives this option - and the standard Pro Res H22?

I'm importing with the Apple XDCAM Res and telling it to edit in the same format.

I'm asking because my Mac Pro is stuttering on this and having difficulty rendering... freeze ups etc. Especially when I export to Motion and come back with a Motion file.

Having eliminated problems with my hard disk set up it is now much faster, but I still get this problem. I'm either using a codec it can't cope with, or my video card's ram is faulty... that's my diagnosis. The editing course I'm on uses iMacs to this stuff and they have no problems.

They don't know the XDCAM and like you edit everything in Pro Res. So I'm trying to eliminate all possibilities.

This is not a debate on HDV (long GOP), editing HDV natively I have experienced many of the problems you mentioned. Recently we edited a Promo where we converted everything to ProRes and it worked great in and out of FCP and After Effects.

So Jude, I have a question, how do you import XDCAM using the Transfer utility into ProRes? Is that possible or are you having to convert the XDCAM to ProRes using Compressor?

well here is something you can do if you got an XDCAM VTR.

(Never tried it, but im pretty sure it will work).

On a XDCAM VTR you got an SDI out and a Remote RS-422 (9pin). So im pretty sure you can attach the VTR to the KONA card than plug the SDI out from VTR to the IN of the KONA card than capture footage like when you use a BETA DIGI VTR or HDCAM SR VTR.

Just have to choose Apple ProRes codec in your capture options. In fact describing it, i will try this setup tonight and comeback with comments.

P.S.
Thinking about it, it will try to import from XDCAM VTR and do a conversion on the fly with the KONA card, taking the XDCAM codec (IMX 50mbps) and blowing it up to 1080i

Sure, that should work, but I think using the XDCAM "VTR" the same way you use a tape deck and capturing via a graphics card kind of misses the point of being tapeless.

It is tapeless but when you add the cost of the VTR and the Kona or Blackmagic card it becomes a "realtime" scenario loosing much of the efficiency of being tapeless...

That's why I'm looking for a software (hopefully faster than real time) conversion.

you can stay tapeless, if your camera have an SDI out like the PMW-EX1. Than i would like to know what type of XDCAM camera your using if your not using XDCAM disk ???

Since your not using PMW-EX1 or EX3 you are using disk so were is the ''TAPELESS'' work flow ?

I am using an EX3 with 16GB cards.

If I use the XDCAM Transfer utility I get long GOP (HDV) files. I want to be able to use the Transfer utility or drag and drop the XDCAM clips and convert them to ProRes in one step preferably faster than realtime.

We are cutting in a ProRes timeline, just importing XDCAM as-is. But we have a lot of mixed media types - SX, and straight feds from a router - so all that is coming in ProRes, and it's all being cut together on the ProRes timeline.

Since when media files from XDCAM on EX3 are HDV...??? The codec is IMX

>Since when media files from XDCAM on EX3 are HDV...??? The codec is IMX


No its not FM. XDCAM comes in many flavours. You're thinking of one of XDCAM's SD variants (eg DV & IMX), but what is being discussed here is one of XDCAM's EX variants (one of which is 1440x1080 25 Mb/s CBR aka HDV)

Shows you what a noob I am... my camera's a PMW EX1


WHich might account for a bit of the confusion here.

Anyway, I'm pretty much assuming that FC converts it's native format to a Quicktime variant.

But is it Pro Res H22?

The render setting gives me the option between whatever is on the timeline and setting that says Pro Res H22 HDV/HD XDCAM only... (Hence the momentary confusion about the name of the camera!)

I've no idea whether the render setting should be that or not, or whether the XD transfer utility makes it Apple Pro Res. I certainly doesn't call it that. It calls it Apple XD Cam .

If I set the time line as Apple Pro Res H22 I assume it will convert whatever goes onto the time line... i.e. render it when I drop it on? This sounds like it'll slow things down rather than speed things up.

Anyway, I'm confused about the codec and it is either the codec I'm having a problem with or a dodgy video display card, or ram problems... It's a brand new machine! And I'm completely green so have no idea what to expect in behaviour. Though, like I said, I expect a Mac Pro to handle HD at least as well as an old iMac! And hopefully better. But at the moment it's not.

>Anyway, I'm pretty much assuming that FC converts it's native format to a Quicktime variant.

No. The EX1 camera native format is a fully supported camera native codec in FCP ... all that happens at ingest is the clips raw essence (the image data) is wrapped in a Quicktime container


>But is it Pro Res H22?

No (see above) .... by the way, its ProRes 422 (four two two) not H22


>The render setting gives me the option between whatever is on the timeline and setting that says Pro Res H22 HDV/HD XDCAM only... I've no idea whether the render setting should be that or not ...

Yes. Its recommended to set the Render codec to ProRes


>If I set the time line as Apple Pro Res H22 I assume it will convert whatever goes onto the time line... i.e. render it when I drop it on? This sounds like it'll slow things down rather than speed things up.

You get preview quality real time performance without render ... obviously you will need to render before mastering.

422!

How many times have I looked at that and read H22!

Hmm. You say you get preview quality real rime performance without render... I'm rendering all the time!!! Move something on the time line and you have to render. Bring something in from motion and you have to render...

How can I set that so that I'm not forever rendering to get any play back? As far as I can work out I've got the same settings as the iMac's at the course I'm on. But they don't use samples from the XD cam. THe samples they use seem to work OK on my computer which does indicate to me that perhaps the XD Cam's codec is the problem... or some mixed up setting I've got somewhere.

I'm trying to work out whether I have a video card/ram problem or merely a dumb setting in my software! (My ignorance of the Mac is profound and HD is as yet still mysterious and strange to me.)

somethings not right ...

select one of your source clips and press Cmd-9 to open the clip's item properties window ... note them down
same goes for the active sequence that wants to render ... press Cmd-zero to open the sequence settings window and note those settings down

post back with those details

Here's what I have in the sequence settings:

1920x1080 HDTV 1080i(16:9)
XDCAM EX 1080p25 (35mb/sVBR)

And I have three kinds of clips on the time line:

Motion
1280X720
64.6 K/sec Sq. Straight. Normal.

Apple Pro Res 422
1440x1080
12.8 mb/sec
HD(1440x1080)
upper odd, none, normal

XDCAM Ex 1080p25(33mb/s VBR)
1920x1080


I'd say the XDCam files aren't giving me as much trouble as the Motion ones, which sometimes render, sometimes freeze up. And that the Apple Pro Res 422 need rendering whenever I move them and also sometime freeze.

Just looking at it does make me suspect that it's the mix of codecs that's causing the problems and the Motion one seems all the more suspect.

I also note that some of the files I've exported from Motion are p24 rather than p25, though everything else is the same. I haven't noticed much difference between performance here.

And since I've set everything as progressive I'm surprised the Aspect ratio in the sequence settings says 1080i !

I've no idea if that is good or bad since it's a setting that appeared by default.

My instinct is to try and get them all exactly the same, but I'm not sure how or if I really do need to.

Does any of this look out of place? You're supposed to be able to run difference codecs off the time line... but it must cause some performance problems...

Haven't yet worked with XDCAM, but editing everything in a ProRes HQ timeline should do you pretty well here. Also, you're in PAL. It's 25 fps.

>Motion
>1280X720

>I also note that some of the files I've exported from Motion are p24 rather than p25,
>though everything else is the same.

You need to adjust your settings in Motion- both frame rates (to 25 fps), as well as frame size. 1920x1080 should be the frame rate you should be set to in both Motion and FCP.



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I agree. Make a new timeline that is ProRes and paste your cut into that. Do not let the clip settings override the sequence settings if you get that dialogue box.

Also agree about setting your parameters correctly in Motion before importing into FCP. It's not a great idea to use FCP to render material to a different size and frame rate if you've got the tools to make it correct in the first place.

>I'd say the XDCam files aren't giving me as much trouble as the Motion ones

Nor should they as they are the native clips (native to the timeline settings)

>And that the Apple Pro Res 422 need rendering whenever I move them and also sometime freeze.

Where are the ProRes clips coming from? Can you get them into the same basic resolution format as the timeline (ie full raster 1080p25). I find that FCP is much happier mixing codecs than it is mixing resolution ... I would try to see if I could make my sources conform a little better ... set your Motion sequences to the same resolution as your timeline (1080p25).

>I also note that some of the files I've exported from Motion are p24 rather than p25, though everything else is the same. I haven't noticed much difference between performance here.

As above, try to ensure your workflows are not mixing things up unnecessarily. You could be creating a rod for your own back.

>And since I've set everything as progressive I'm surprised the Aspect ratio in the sequence settings says 1080i !
Thats OK, thats the pixel aspect ratio and is as it should be.

Try setting your timeline to Apple ProRes 422 1920x1080 25p 48 kHz ... see if that improves your performance issues at all. You have a much more powerful machine than I have (an old MBP w/ 1GB RAM) and yet I have no need to render with XDCAM clips in a ProRes timeline (or visa versa)

The freeze up are probably because your sequence is in INTERLACE and your clip in progressive.

Tell me, did the clip you drop in your sequence automatically have to be rendered or a little green bar appear over the timeline when you drop a clip in it.

Hi,

according the Andy Mees the 1080i is the Pixel Aspect Ration and as it should be.

There seems no way to change that!

In fact there seems no way to change the resolution setting in Motion. You can export to quicktime with the identical settings to the time line but you can't "Round Trip" to the time line without it defaulting to 1280X720... If someone knows how to set that, let me know! Or if someone knows whether this is the problem or not, let me know!

At the moment I think I'll just export from Motion to Quicktime and forego the convenience of Round Tripping.

If think my Motion is happy with a Pro Res time line - I tried out some of the exercises in the Apple Motion Training manual and they seems OK - but certainly something happens on my XD Cam setting. And moving the lot to a new Pro Res time line wasn't a great success. It wouldn't play the Motion components. I tried to render but the whole thing froze. So I don't think I can move my present project without adding another layer of fog to the proceedings.

I think my present problems seem mostly to be with the motion elements so I'll head over to the motion forum and see what they say there.

If I fix that bit then I'll know if some of the quirks of editing material from two different cameras are causing any of the problems.

Hmm... Just noticed...

>Apple Pro Res 422
>1440x1080
>12.8 mb/sec
>HD(1440x1080)
>upper odd, none, normal

Is it Upper (odd)- interlaced? Where did this come from? And what does "none" and "normal" here refer to?

Reason why i mentioned switching the codec to ProRes, is because, of the 2 different codecs (and the Motion file), ProRes has superior resolution to XDCAM, and no conforming...

What's the frame rate/frame size the Motion project is set up to? That should be set to 1920x1080 25p.

Yea, an Animation quicktime can probably do the job if Motion and FCP aren't talking very well.. File sizes gonna be huge though...



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