OT: 120hz HDTVs. OY VAY!!

Perhaps most of you are clued into this but yesterday I saw my first 120hz HDTVs at a store show room. They were featured as their top sets.

OH MY GOD. ITS AWFUL! It makes film and 23.98 sources look like video! Like 29.97i or 60p. Like it was shot that way to begin with. The motion feels too fast, artificial, and cheap-cheap-cheap. Spiderman and Transformers were on the screen and I swear to God I almost vomited. It was the worst, cheesiest thing I have ever seen in in consumer video.

How can we help end this technology trend?

Haha! I install these as my day job. That's exactly what I said.

There won't be an end to it though. It's high on the request list of everyone I've talked to.

Sorry to disappoint.

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How can we help end this technology trend?

Don't buy them Buy a Plasma.

I like the Vizio XVT series LCD's with the 120hz technology...looking at the 47"er right now. I love the picture. Sorry...but I will probably be supporting this technology trend.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

But nobody in the creative process, not the director, not the DP, not the editor, not the producer, not the studio, not the actors, not the special effects department -- nobody intended for the film/Blu-Ray/DVD to be seen that way.

Why not shoot in 1080i or 720p60 for dramatic narratives from now on? Everything can look like a network soap opera!

Thanks for listening to rant.

Chris, I'm not sure you've got exactly the right idea. A 120 Hz display doesn't have anything to do with your frame rate. It's the refresh speed of the display. It's analogous to going to the movies, where the frame rate is 24 fps but the shutter opens twice on every frame. The screen shows 48 pictures a second, but the pictures are just doubled, giving you a 24 fps frame rate.

As for your showroom thing, I wouldn't trust what I see at an electronics store if you paid me. With no idea what signal is feeding the display, there's no way to evaluate what you're seeing.

My broadcast monitor is a Panasonic BT-LH1760, with a 120 Hz refresh in 60i mode. It's a great, inexpensive broadcast monitor. I wouldn't dream of using it for finishing, but there's nothing wrong with it for offlining.

I appreciate the input, really. But as an editor for the past 10 years and a video geek for the 10 before that, I am very, very sure of the effect. It may not come from frame rate but nevertheless the effect is strikingly similar. Just Google "120hz" and "looks like video" and get ready for the flood! LOL!

Without a doubt, the effect of 120hz on the consumer level brand name HDTVs is a "cheapening" and "plastic" and "sped-up" look. Both Spider Man 3 and Transformers had the sheen of a cheesy "movie of the week" on SciFi channel. The fantastic Panasonic THX plasma next to these offenders looked just fine, and did not have the 120hz "feature".

One hour later I saw Spider Man 3 on Dish HD (a 24 frame program inside of a 1080i broadcast signal - with pulldown) and it looked like a luxurious movie again - cueing the brain to suspend disbelief like narratives are supposed to.

My beef with this is actually more important than my little opinion about what I see in my own little home. I am gravely concerned for our work and our clients. This gimmicky trend harms our work.

If you are just viewing 60i or 60p sources on these sets then you can't see what I am talking about. And professional level 120hz sets may handle the issue differently, I couldn't say.

Trust me. Go to a store and see what I'm talking about.

I have certain doubts about this as well. 29.97fps interlaced video has a certain "home video" look, but you don't get that look when you transfer a 24fps 35mm film onto 29.97fps video. To my knowledge, you can't "add back" frames that were never back to begin with at the recording stage. You can make 60i look similar to 24p, but not the other way around. Maybe I'm far outdated and missing something, but the principle should apply.


www.derekmok.com

Plasma is really the answer. I have a 720p Panasonic that gets the 1080p LCD guys in the neighborhood questioning their purchases...

This is NOT an issue of 120hz televisions!

120hz TVs are great for perfectly reproducing film sources by using a 5:5 pulldown so there are no mixed/interlaced filler frames.

The problem you are seeing is the result of the "Enhanced Motion" setting which CAN and SHOULD be turned off (except when watching sports, then it's awesome). It just so happens that only 120hz TVs have this feature on them.


PS: Plasma all the way.

Thus my surprise. The effect was unexpected for exactly the reasons you state.

Trust me, this is the video equivalent of the "Concert Hall" audio setting on amplifiers. Nobody really uses it and its a gimmick that actually retards the original recording.

Look it up. Check it out in person. Weep.

Hopefully the setting can be user canceled.

bigbossbmb Wrote:
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> This is NOT an issue of 120hz televisions!
>
> 120hz TVs are great for perfectly reproducing film
> sources by using a 5:5 pulldown so there are no
> mixed/interlaced filler frames.
>
> The problem you are seeing is the result of the
> "Enhanced Motion" setting which CAN and SHOULD be
> turned off (except when watching sports, then it's
> awesome). It just so happens that only 120hz TVs
> have this feature on them.
>
>
> PS: Plasma all the way.

If it is only paired with 120hz sets, and it is on by default, then we still have a problem out there. Our 23.98 programs and films will still look horrible. Thanks for the detailed response, though. That is a good thing to know.

And for my edit suite, both at home and work, I use an HD CRT: the discontinued Sony prosumer XBR960. Amazing dynamic range. I do like the best Panasonic and Pioneer plasmas, but worry about the still frames I leave up for long periods of time.

I don't know if the setting is on by default. I'd bet the TV's "Cinema Mode" would have it turned off. The problem is that most of the sets on display at stores like Best Buy have it turned on and some people think it looks cool. It's really unfortunate.

Chris,

You are putting too much emphasis on what you see "in the store". Different stores use different methods. You need to find out what they use to pump the signal into that monitor and what format they are playing (DVD / MPEG / WMV / etc). What you have to do is have them hook up a BluRay player straight to a singular monitor and PLAY WITH THE ADJUSTMENTS. That "feature" should be adjustable or "on / off".

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

grafixjoe Wrote:
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> Chris,
>
> You are putting too much emphasis on what you see
> "in the store". Different stores use different
> methods. You need to find out what they use to
> pump the signal into that monitor and what format
> they are playing (DVD / MPEG / WMV / etc). What
> you have to do is have them hook up a BluRay
> player straight to a singular monitor and PLAY
> WITH THE ADJUSTMENTS. That "feature" should be
> adjustable or "on / off".

Yeah, they did have Blu-ray players directly connected to them. And I took extra effort to look at every set that listed 120hz as a feature. I understand very well that stores make the mistake of leaving default settings like "vivid" or "dynamic" on and can leave a harsh image. After this second experience with these sets, and with a testimony from an installer, KevinD, in a post above, I am 100% sure it is the sets themselves.

I really think Bigbossbmb cleared this up in his post above: it is a "Motion Enhancer" that is, more often than not, paired with 120hz HDTVs, so it is easily associated with it. It can be independently turned off/on, but is usually ON by default. The effect DOES make movies and 23.98 sources, while in motion, look like soap opera video. There is no debate to be had about this. And after Google-ing further, I see there are THOUSANDS of posts about this on the net.

So, its a good news/bad news situation. Are people with 120hz HDTVs going to toggle the filter off? And how popular are these sets going to be? If they make my work for my clients look bad, then I have a legit gripe with the industry.

Look, if we're going to have THAT conversation, let's start with the tragedy of the death of the CRT and work our way up from there. Everything's been downhill since we gave up glass tubes and electron beams.

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Everything's been downhill since we gave up glass tubes and electron beams.

AMEN!

seems to me the 120hz thing is for whiney consumers and the 24frame judder. if they want to make close encounters look like an episode of threes company - bleh, whatever...

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts guys. I've been hanging around these parts since the first 2-pop.com days and wanted to send along a friendly warning to my peers. Don't be too surprised when you see this effect on a client monitor or a producer's home HDTV.

-Christopher S. Johnson

to be honest, i dont think most consumers will even notice - unless you point it out to them. and if so, we'll all just shoot 1080i and be done with it...

lp vs 8track
beta vs vhs
and now this...

wayne granzin Wrote:
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> to be honest, i dont think most consumers will
> even notice - unless you point it out to them.
> and if so, we'll all just shoot 1080i and be done
> with it...
>
> lp vs 8track
> beta vs vhs
> and now this...


It is possible that some consumers may not notice, but your analogy with the other formats doesn't quite match up for me and here is why:

Its not about picture element quality. Both VHS and Blu-Ray give the same temporal feeling: 24 with pulldown. This "Motion Enhancer" included on 120hz HDTVs changes the actual temporal feeling. This feeling, whether it can be defined by a consumer or not, is a player in the mind's suspension of disbelief during narrative stories. A fantasy or memory vs. "live" feeling. That affects storytelling as much as watercolor vs. oil painting. Its not what was intended.

Did you ever watch "Dr. Who" in the 70's and 80's? Where you ever jarred by the switching back and forth between video and film during the story? They used video for interiors and film for exteriors. Every time they switched, it "cheapened" the experience and drew attention to itself. The interiors felt like a soap opera or a stage play, and not a sci-fi to get lost in.

The 120hz refresh feature was implemented for one reason: SPORTS...period.

Sports nuts have been complaining for years about flat panels (LCD's in particular) that display an unnatural "motion blur" because the screens couldn't refresh fast enough to keep up with the action. If you don't like the way it treats movies, turn it off. Simple as that.

I personally look forward to at least being able to choose to activate this feature to watch football / baseball / hockey / soccer and play the Wii

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

> It is possible that some consumers may not notice, but your analogy with the other formats
> doesn't quite match up for me and here is why:
> Its not about picture element quality. Both VHS and Blu-Ray give the same temporal feeling: 24
> with pulldown. This "Motion Enhancer" included on 120hz HDTVs changes the actual temporal
> feeling.

And vinyl LP fanatics will scream that it's not about sound quality, it's about sound "character" -- warmth.

They're analogies. No need to beat them to death looking for flaws and little mismatches.


www.derekmok.com

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The 120hz refresh feature was implemented for one reason: SPORTS...period.

thats funny, all the looping demos ive seen on the sets in stores dont show any sports. they show scrolling text, pans and motion detail. though living with an HD LCD in my home for the last year i sure can see how sports would benefit!

derekmok Wrote:
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> And vinyl LP fanatics will scream that it's not
> about sound quality, it's about sound "character"
> -- warmth.
>
> They're analogies. No need to beat them to death
> looking for flaws and little mismatches.


No beating going on here. Maybe my tone is not coming across as intended. We are peers and I'm making an effort to warn you about something I found and report it back to the community. I dont know how to say in a more friendly way, "that analogy doesn't work for me because of A, B, and C". Trust me, I see us on the same side here: the creators. This isn't a consumer bulletin board.

Have you seen the effect?

Here is a better analogy to me:

Charlie Chaplin never intended for us to see those silent films sped up. They were filmed to show a natural speed, but today's transfers show them at an accelerated rate. And its true, we accept it as is.

This effect is much closer to the issue at hand than LP vs. CD.

-Christopher

Nah, no unfriendliness interpreted or anything. But the HD world is so myriad that no analogy is going to fit completely. I look at 60fps video games and my eyes gel up. The silent-film reference isn't even an analogy -- it's the exact same issue. And we adapted to them, didn't we? It's evolution.

On one spot the last three weeks I've been working with some super-duper slow-mo footage from the Phantom HD camera. And we were running those clips at something like 800 per cent in the timeline and it's still slow-mo. The new generations, weaned on 60i video games, may not be as bothered by HD clarity and video motion as we older people are. They might even like the likeness to real motion and prefer it to film flicker.


www.derekmok.com

grafixjoe Wrote:
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> The 120hz refresh feature was implemented for one
> reason: SPORTS...period.


Actually no, a 120hz refresh rate HELPS film/24p sources by showing it without a pulldown. With these sets, people can see the true 24fps image (each frame 5 times) without any mixed pulldown frames. Once you turn off the Motion Enhancer, 120hz TVs are great for film sources.

It's unfortunate that this is only available on LCDs. There are a few Plasmas that will show 24p without pulldown (Pioneer Kuro being the best of em) by raising it's refresh rate to 72hz and showing the source at 3:3. The Panasonic 800u series actually drops it's refresh rate to 48hz and shows film at 2:2 (although there are a LOT of reports that this makes the flicker too apparent/distracting).

Derkmok, I totally agree: things change and being 40 years old does become a liability at some point. Hopefully I am not the one to ever unfairly poo-poo emerging art and media forms.

But I do expect this: I expect that if my show is going to be presented mostly in "Motion Enhanced" mode, then I should edit in "Motion Enhanced" mode. Things like this can influence a cut or FX. I should edit in the world that people will be watching it in. The same would go for 3-D or IMAX. I would need at least a mock-up of what the audience would see to be an effective editor.

My hope is that this is just an intellectual exercise and the "enhancement" disappears from the market for all 24 based material.

But sure, bring on the new formats and new ways of telling a story -- just clue me into it before I shoot and edit.

bigbossbmb Wrote:
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a 120hz refresh rate HELPS film/24p
> sources by showing it without a pulldown. With
> these sets, people can see the true 24fps image
> (each frame 5 times) without any mixed pulldown
> frames. Once you turn off the Motion Enhancer,
> 120hz TVs are great for film sources.
>
> It's unfortunate that this is only available on
> LCDs. There are a few Plasmas that will show 24p
> without pulldown (Pioneer Kuro being the best of
> em) by raising it's refresh rate to 72hz and
> showing the source at 3:3. The Panasonic 800u
> series actually drops it's refresh rate to 48hz
> and shows film at 2:2 (although there are a LOT of
> reports that this makes the flicker too
> apparent/distracting).

This is an awesome post. Thanks so much. It explains everything. It would solve a huge issue if the manufacturer would just leave the default for the "Motion Enhancer" to off, or auto detect the source material.

I have seen this effect myself on displays in retail stores when Sony started pushing their 120hz sets.

The "motion enhancement" looks horrible. That's if you really love the look of 24p over interlaced video for the movies or "filmed" television shows. The effect looks just like video. And it's weird because the effect will be apparent one shot and not the next depending on the content.
Plus you see other weird smearing motion artifacts. The artifacts are very similar to what you frequently get using vector based speed changing in post. And no they are not the typical smearing you can get with LCD panels.

Watching a movie with this makes it feel like your are watching one of the "behind the scenes" documentary extras, going back and forth between shots from the film and video.

I think of it as Sony's revenge for 24p as they never wanted to provide 24p capability in their products originally, so now they can make 24p footage look interlaced.

But it's going to be with us from here on out since many consumers actually like the look. I have seen quotes from people saying things like "it looks like the picture jumps off the screen".