Post workflow - Feature shot & assembled in Canada and finished in Europe

I'd like your opinion on the proper editing workflow for a feature that we're shooting here in Canada in the next few weeks. As editor, I'll meet with the production and suggest that we work with 1080 DvcPro HD dailes at 23.98fps. I've read about the process employed by David Fincher on both Zodiac and The Curious Case of BB and that's definitely how the director and I want to proceed. The film is shot in 35mm and will be TK'ed to tape or quicktimes, but we have yet to establish the exact working format for the offline.

I think that the producers will ultimately go back to the negative and finish with a DI at 2K, but we're hoping to convince the production of the added advantage of cutting a picture with high-resolution images and hopefully we'll get HD dailies instead of SD ones.

The film is a co-production. That means that the film's loose cut will take place during principal photography here in Canada, but that the editing suite - a Kona-based MacPro FCP station - will be packed and moved to Europe for the fine cut.

That said, will the choice of format impact the post process if we are to set up our suite in Europe with European monitors? How can DvcPro HD @ 23.98fps, for instance, be monitored over there? Do we need to forsake our HD dailies and go with standard def PAL right off the bat or is there a solution that will allow us cut the film at 24p and move everything "across the pond" seamlessly?

>How can DvcPro HD @ 23.98fps, for instance, be monitored over there?

Conform to 24 or 25 fps. FCP can add a pulldown on playback.



www.strypesinpost.com

it may well be that if your finishing in Europe, that you;d be best off using the system they;d be most comfortable with, which would be a 24@25 workflow.
(of course im only guessing, as are you and anybody else who posts.
only way to know is to talk with them.)

but let's say they DO want to work at 24@25.
it's relatively simple:
shoot 24,
telcine @ 25.
"confrom" back to 24 in FCP.

but there are a fair few workflow issues, too, not worth going into unless you know that;s the way you will go.

this is only if you have SD rushes.
if you talk them into HD rushes, then you can go true 24 all the way.


"How can DvcPro HD @ 23.98fps, for instance, be monitored over there? "
conform isnt an answewr here, as you need to monitor while you work.
the answer is not complicated.
most LCD monitors will play any framerate you throw at them,
so get a nice big one.
it will make the cutting room look SO wonderful!

the film i'm cutting now is 24@25. (we had SD rushes boo-hoo)
for our NTSC DVDs i just conform an output to 23.98, and compressor reads that as an NTSC frame-rate and takes care of the rest.


nick

Only thing different across the pond here is the power source. 220v. If you're bringing gear over, you'll need transformers and should use voltage regulator. Electrical supply shop items.

Otherwise, there's no problem involved in monitoring if for example you use a multi-system LCD like the JVC DT-V24L1D. Connect via BNC to the Kona via SDI and go. There are Sony and Panasonic equivalents. Alternatively, a decent 24" computer monitor (Cinema Display, Eizo, etc.) running out of the Kona via SDI and the signal converted for example via HDLink to the Monitor will do the trick too.

hth,
Clay

ClayC Wrote:

> Otherwise, there's no problem involved in
> monitoring if for example you use a multi-system
> LCD like the JVC DT-V24L1D. Connect via BNC to
> the Kona via SDI and go.

I thought about that, but I doubt we'll have access to such monitors. The plan for the Canadian part of the edit was to use a 42" consumer grade plasma or LCD. The Kona will feed it using an AJA Hi5 box over an HDMI cable. I was hoping to use the same type of monitor over there without having to ship ours.

> if you talk them into HD rushes, then you can go true 24 all the way.

And when you say "true 24" I assume you mean 23.98? Otherwise, what format can we work with so that sync is preserved on both sides of the Atlantic?

As Nick said you should stay on true 24 if possible otherwise you can use some XML tricks to convert.
If you go back to negative be aware that many of those companies in Europe which do the negative cut don't accept 24 fps EDLs. So talk to them in advance.

Another really important thing is the audio recording/handling with external audio. That has to be decided on a very early state before shooting starts. You can get into lot of trouble if your editing setup doesn't match the audio recording setup.
With Zodiac they did use my BWF2XML to keep the audio in stable sync.

Regards
Andreas

Some workflow tools for FCP [www.spherico.com]
TitleExchange -- juggle titles within FCS, FCPX and many other apps.
[www.spherico.com]

Hi Sacha,

Quote
Sacha
Thanks for the response in the LAFCPUG forum and the heads up on your BEF2XML application. I'm curious, though, doesn't the latest version of FCP support BWF files natively now?

It does and it does not.

The latest version of Final Cut Pro will interpret BWAV based upon the current project settings during import. This works fine (more or less) if you never change those settings and files don't go offline.
About the "more or less" - this is affecting NTSC and PAL 50 fps. If you edit 23.98 etc. you're running slow seconds. So 1 second of recorded pictures will take 1.001 seconds to display. Running external audio at the same time at 48 kHz will play this 1 second of audio in 1 second - so you're out of sync. Doesn't mean anybody will notice that with the current way of creating features since the cuts are normally too short and media distribution/transmission does the rest.

The other thing is that BWAV doesn't have a Quicktime timecode even though you see a timecode in FCP. So running external sound is always a risk with subclips and multiclips - it might work with your project over time or it might not.
The main issue is the sync. If you create subclips or multiclips and then do media management or offline/online these audio files will be reconnected by file start (means frame 0) as they don't have a QT timecode.
Another minor issue is that you may have "multi-mono" BWAVs (which is standard and easier to handle in later post). They are easy to import into FCP, but you have to link them manually.

You can use my free sequenceLiner to check sync based upon common timecode which will also create an automatic link of the BWAVs if the recorder is set to "_" before the channel number.

You should do some tests upfront before starting a project like this.

Regards
Andreas

Quote

And when you say "true 24" I assume you mean 23.98? Otherwise, what format can we work with so that sync is preserved on both sides of the Atlantic?

no "true 24" is a true 24 frames per second. not 23.976.

i worked on a feature a couple of years ago that was a US studio film being shot in Australia.
we went true 24 the whole way.
shot at 24, telecined to HDCam at 24 and captured to FCP at 24.


not sure what you mean by sync.
once you shoot sound & pic and sync them up they will stay in sync.

from your post it seemed as if shooting was in NTSC land, and all post was in PAL land.
so all you have to give back to the NTSC folk are DVDs.
for that it's simple: export from FCP, conform to 23.98 in CinemaTools, and make a DVD from that.


really you can go any way you want,
and this will be determined by your post team, sound team, etc.
(and as Andreas said test -test - test!)


nick

Well, thank you all for your input on this issue. It has been very much appreciated.

Thank you all for your invaluable input.

Ok. We have had the post-production meeting today and, for budgetary reasons, it seems that the axe has fallen on our HD dailies (can't win'em all). We will have to settle for plain DVCam dailies, which will either come to us on tape or directly on disk as Quicktimes.

But before we move forward, I want to solidify my understanding of the workflow so we can ensure we get a nice accurate EDL when comes time to match back to the neg and sound reels in Italy:

- Shoot 35 mm
- DVCam PAL dailies TK'ed @ 25 at a local lab here in Canada
- Canadian part of the edit: conform everything to 23.98 in CT and monitor in NTSC
- Italian part of the edit: conform everything back to 25 in CT and monitor in PAL

Am I totally off here?

"Am I totally off here?"

yes!

pick ONE frame rate & format and stick with it, no matter which country you are in.
anything else will be creating a huge problem for no reason.


nick

Yikes. I made a mess there. Nick is right. Pick a frame rate, stick to it, and only change it on the master if you are going out to different regions.

I misread that you got the telecine at 23.98, so i meant that you conform to either 24 or 25 and work from there. 24 is not an issue as FCP can apply a pulldown on the fly to display on PAL monitors. But basically pick one frame rate for the edit and stick to it.

On the other hand, if you're monitoring HD, I believe most HD monitors are able to display both PAL and NTSC. At least in PAL lands, SD PAL monitors are able to display NTSC frame rates as well. But you need to talk to the guys across the pond to check if they are comfortable and sufficiently equipped to handle working in NTSC.

Frame rates, there's 24 (real 24), and there's the 23.98 which they use in NTSC countries (occasionally referred to as "24p", but is really 23.98 because it's easier to add a pulldown to NTSC frame rates). In PAL, you work either 24 or 25, full integer frame rates.



www.strypesinpost.com

Quote
nick
"Am I totally off here?"

yes!

Okay!

We'll stick to a pure 24@25 method throughout. But what are the "fair few workflow issues" you were mentioning in your earlier post, nick?

I'm just about out of questions, so don't despair. After this, I'll jump in and start testing...

off teh top of my head i'd say it boils down to two areas:
Cinema Tools, and Timecode Rate

one main thing to ask yourself is if you need to use CinemaTools (CT) or not.
that's a database app that tracks film data such as keycode.
these days most post houses will do their scanning from an EDL.

CT will also track audio TC.
the film i'm finishing now had guide audio synced in telecine.
the audio TC was entered into an ALE file in telecine,
from there is wound up in CT, and we were ale to make audio EDLs that referred back to the original BWFs.
(we needed an extra week to deal with that after lock-off, but probably saved on assistant wages in the long run, and i dint have to deal with more than 2 tracks of sync audio per clip during the edit)

sycing in telecine means you get an ALE file and can do a batch captuer of your footage.
of course you can have that made up for you without syncing, too.

if you DONT stop and enter info for each slate & take in telecine, then you'd have to enter all that info manually by hand into CT.

you CAN work with whole camera-roll captures, and subclip in FCP, (so there;s only one CT entry per cam-roll)
but using subclips on a big project like a feature seems somewhat un-safe to me.


ALE files
are preferable over flex, or ATN files.
our process was to get the ALE file e-mailed to us immediately after telecine.
i would open it in text edit, and vet it for any errors & omissions (we had to add the A & B-cam sufix for instance as it wasn't obvious from the camera sheets)
i'd then create a capture project in FCP, and send that back to the tape house who would batch capture.

the sooner you can catch these "errors & omissions" the better it is.
why?

because using CT also requires you to maintain a working relationship between your FILES in the finder, your CLIPS in FCP, and the entries in CT.
so if you need to change a file / clip name, then you have an extra amount of work to do.

ultimately you need to have ALL your clips in one database,
but during the shoot it's best to work with one datebase per day.
much easier searching through a days worth of clips than a shoots worth (couple of thousand)
when all is done, compile all databases in to one.

so that's all CinemaTools related stuff.


the other important thing to remember is that to generate a usable EDL, all your clips and your final sequence have to have a TIMECODE RATE of 24@25.
this can be controlled and monitored using a column in the browser,
and can be done after the fact if you somehow overlook setting it correctly at the outset.


obviously it's best if you have an assistant who is familiar with all this.


good luck with it all,
nick

The plan is for the lab to scan using the EDL. So no problems there.

Based on your explanation, we will still ask for ALE files to keep track of the audio. Just as you described, we'll rebuild the edit from the original BWF's after picture lock and only have to deal with 2tks of audio during the edit. That's fine too.

I'm curious about one thing, though. When the lab syncs the sound to the pictures in the 24@25 process, I'm guessing the audio on tape is also sped up 4%. By interpreting the digitized clips at 24 for the edit, the reference audio is therefore also slowed back down to normal. And as long as you make sure that your final sequence and all your clips have a TC rate of 24@25 upon outputting your final EDL, everything will be accurate?

that's it in a nutshell.

in my experience, the lab gets the audio into some device of theirs where they can speed it up.
it gets slowed down again when you conform it in FCP.

if your lab is making preview DVDs of rushes it's simpler all round if people can accept those as 25fps. (with pitched up audio)
that's what our crew did, and didn't have problems.
otherwise you have to capture the footage and conform it before making the DVs.
this makes the cutting room into a DVD shop, which i cant stand, but it depends on the size of your team.


nick

The lab will be outputting DVDs as far as I know. At least I've asked for it, specifically for that reason. It's a small film and there isn't a second station for that stuff. If you get caught up, all you do is churn out discs and that's a pain.

In any case, thanks a million for your help, nick. Same goes for strypes, Andreas and ClayC. It's great to have such a resource online and such knowledgeable folks to speak to.

I'll keep you posted on our progress.

Sacha Sojic