Credits

Hey All,

Here is non technical question. I have been working on a feature length historical/political documentary for the past year. It is complete and in the online phase. Initially, I was given 150 hours of interview and broll footage and a 5 hour stringout (which only accounted for about 1/10 of all the footage). I was left alone for much of the time and seemingly had complete creative control. I was also responsible for writing some VO narration not to mention researching history in order to craft a story from all the footage. Beforehand we negotiated the obvious editor's credit but now of course, I can't help but wonder if I should try and get another credit in addition. Any opinions?.

I don't think renegotiations are out of line. Especially if you're not asking for more money...which isn't out of the question, either.


www.derekmok.com

Unless you're on a union job, negotiating your credit (and compensation) is rarely ever just prima facie not okay. You can always ask. Of course, some directors/producers are more approachable than others.

You may want to be a bit careful about egos. Make sure you have a good working relationship with the guys. Of course, re-negotiation where it doesn't involve money is usually easier. Re-negotiation about money is not out of the question either, but of course, you now have less bargaining power, since the project is completed.



www.strypesinpost.com

Thanks for all the good advice.
The clincher which I failed to mention before is that I'm not getting paid for this. I did it in an attempt to move laterally from short format to longer format documentary. The other thing is.. the project is not totally finished. The TV version is complete but the longer feature length film festival version still needs fine tuning.

How much can I push for before gaining a reputation as a "hot headed" editor?

> How much can I push for before gaining a reputation as a "hot headed" editor?

If you're courteous in requesting an additional credit, I don't see how you'd get that kind of rep. If you're not getting paid, and if you're doing work that deserves an extra credit, then it's just one line of text among hundreds and they shouldn't be too miserly about it. Hell, I've done jobs where I didn't expect a credit (a preliminary sound mix/design on a film's Sundance submission), but got one in the finished feature -- which dramatically increased my sense of loyalty to that filmmaker.

Conversely I've also been offered an extra credit before (unpaid gig years ago), but the filmmakers didn't put it in the final film. Not cool, and didn't endear me to those guys -- but it's not like I'll start acting snooty or pissed around them.


www.derekmok.com

wow, thats a lot of work for free.

they really should be giving you a good credit,
and it sure wont hurt to ask. (nicely)

can i ask what you are hoping to get?

i can definitely see you sharing a writing credit,
but i wouldn't like your chances of a shared directing credit,
no director i know would do that.

i always like the idea of an "Edited By" credit.
i think that says a lot, but it's a bit subtle.

i remember reading an interview with T.V. Mikels, (Corpse Grinders, Doll Squad, etc!)
his take on credits was that they don't cost anything,
so if somebody working for next to nothing wanted a good one,
he gave it to them.


nick

You already have an editor's credit - per your post, correct?

How about the wonderfully vague "Creative Consultant"

Or, better, if it is merited you might try them on "Associate Producer".

I completely agree with Nick Meyers in his quote from Mr Corpse Grinders (I've actually seen this movie, to my eternal shame). I've always gone by the maxim that it costs me nothing to give a credit and it means everything to the recipient.

Naturally one has to be careful about treading on other people's toes.

If they are nice people and you feel at ease with them, you should ask, while being careful when so doing to look down at the floor and mumble your request obsequiously.

Best

Harry.

Harry Bromley-Davenport.

> his take on credits was that they don't cost anything,
> so if somebody working for next to nothing wanted a good one,
> he gave it to them.

And conversely, nothing says "I'm an ass" like messing with people's credits. I had one director once who had me edit her short film. I finished a week or two ahead of schedule. And what did I see when I went to the screening? "Edited by (Director's Name) and Derek Mok". Slap in the face. She had also split the credits of her production designer, and gave herself a casting credit to boot.


www.derekmok.com

> If they are nice people and you feel at ease with them, you should ask, while being careful when
> so doing to look down at the floor and mumble your request obsequiously.

No, definitely not. You don't ever want to be vague and mumbly when you're talking about an agreement. Be clear, be courteous, be respectful but confident. Either you deserve this and believe in it, or you don't.


www.derekmok.com

Well, Derek, I didn't mean that to be taken quite as literally as you appear to have interpreted my sentence and it's revealing that you slap down my suggestion for an approach.

I was really saying that it's a bad idea to come across as demanding and, perhaps, it is more effective to find a non-confrontational manner of approach by "backing into" the subject. For instance, while having a discussion with another person, to say "No, definitely not" might be misinterpreted as rude.

I, at least, have managed, largely, to get by without being confrontational and, if I am asking for something which is within the gift of another person, not to appear completely confident that I entirely deserve it. This gives leeway for the "donor" to feel that they are generous, gracious and generally a smashing person which, perhaps, makes them more likely to grant my little favor.

Manipulation. See?

Harry.

Harry Bromley-Davenport.

> if I am asking for something which is within the gift of another person, not to appear
> completely confident that I entirely deserve it.

If he's not confident that he entirely deserves it, or appears so, then a producer may also feel that way and not be inclined to grant him that credit.

Non-confrontational is good; a runaround approach to communication isn't. When negotiating about rates, credit and other matters, it is best to be clear and precise in communicating. Uncertain and inaccurate communication is a major reason why people find themselves in dispute about credits, agreements, payment and so forth.

There's nothing wrong with looking the other party in the eye and saying, "John, I feel that I've also done this work and that work, and I'd like to ask that you give me this credit on the project to reflect what I've done." Not, "Uh, Mr. Smith, wouldn't it be nice if there was a credit like this and that on the project?"

It's not a gift. It's not a favour. It's business. Do the work, get the credit. If he's not getting paid, then the credit is the payment. If a post house needed to charge you extra for more work than expected, would you rather they told you in a vague, "backing in" way that leaves you uncertain about the actual cost, or would you rather they told you the exact amount you still need to pay, and when it needs to be paid, in a courteous but businesslike manner?


www.derekmok.com

"Edited by (Director's Name) and Derek Mok"

ouch...
and very ignorant.
she's confusing her role of Directing the editor, or casting person, or whoever,
with the actual job.

there was a mainstream director here who was notorious for sitting on top of everyone.
(slowing the process down unbelievably)
on one of his later films he credited himself with "Musical Concepts".
presumably he had an idea to use a certain piece of music over a certain scene,
and wanted everybody to know how smart he was,
without realizing he was just doing the job of... Directing.


nick

as a follow on:
i also think that the roll of "editor" does encompass a lot of what the original poster talked about:
shaping the story, writing the odd piece of VO, etc.

problem is there's no real credit distinction between "really good, creative editor" and "button pushing operator"
and unfortunately a lot of people think the role of editor is the later.
(for me "edited BY" caries a bit of that distiction with it)

but i still think you (Ksite) should ask for, and probably deserve a souped up credit.


nick

Nevertheless, the reality of his particular case is that additional credit appears to be solely within the gift of this producer character in that it was not sorted out properly beforehand.

Hence my advice remains to tread warily. Ksite (the O/P) is not in a good position to bargain, as indeed he might have been had he known beforehand that he was going to be doing this massive amount of work.

Apparently you and I just have differing advice for Ksite. You appear to take a more bold and aggressive position in such things, and I, in my disgusting slimy and subversively underhand manner, would attempt to manipulate Ksite's boss into feeling that it's his idea to give me - say - more money or extra credit or a ham and egg sandwich.

Perhaps it depends on the person with whom one is dealing.

In any event, let's hope the O/P manages to get his just deserts.

I could do with a ham and egg sandwich right now.

Best

Harry

Harry Bromley-Davenport.