Capture DVD footage from HDV Camera.

Hi,
I'm surprised how I capture VHS, Super VHS, HDV footage (16:9) but I can't capture just DV footage.

I have a client whose TV is 3:2, so I use my HDV Canon Camera but set in the DV Format (3:2). The tapes are the MiniDV HD ones but the video recorded there is in DV format of course.

I tried many things on the FCP to get a proper set up: NTSC, DV-NTSC 48KHz, custom set up... but nothing, I can not see the image on the computer. The sequence is set up to DV-NTSC 48Khz.

Any help?

Thanks a lot.

I'm assuming you're connected to FCP via Firewire.

Do you have that connection set up to downconvert? On the Sony VTRs, there is a setting in there called "iLink" which is Sony's fancy term for Firewire. That can be set up for Down-Convert or HD. This is independent of the analog video outputs on the deck.

In your case, you would need to make sure the Firewire setting is for something like DownConvert or DV. Just because you put DV tapes in there, the camera may not automatically switch over to DV playback.

Just a guess on my part, I don't know Canon cameras very well.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
biscardicreative.com

The following video describes the problem:
video: [www.metacafe.com]

Thx in advance for your help.

Two problems here. You're not using a DV anamorphic preset but your media is widescreen. Second problem is I don't think your box will act in pass through mode. It either converts DV to analog, or it converts analog to DV. It is either DV in or DV out. I don't think it can be both, which is what you want. Also the box will not do widescreen I don't believe. You need to get a cable that will go from 4-pin FW400 to 9-pin FW800. That said many Canon cameras seem to have problems with these cables, but you should try that.

All the best,

Tom

Thank U. I'll try to get that cable from 4 to 9. Thx a lot.

Mario,

Tom is correct in his assessment.

I have a Canopus ADVC300, as well, and it only works as an analog to DV-25 or DV-25 to analog converter. It doesn't input or output HDV video.

The initial "VTR okay" (with the color bars) signal you saw in FCP was just the color bars output from the Canopus converter.

Again, the 4 pin or 6 pin FW400 connectors can only be used one at a time, and not as "pass through" connections.

Canopus recommends using a 4/6 pin FW400 to 9 pin FW800 cable if you need to connect your Canopus to a Mac with FW800 (9 pin), and do not use a cable adapter plug.

You should get a 4 pin FW400 to 9 pin FW800 cable to directly connect your camera to your Mac.

Thanks for posting the video. It makes it much easier to help you...


-Dave

Just wanted to add my thanks to Dave's. Complete information on a problem like this makes it so much easier to assess an issue and recommend a possible solution.

All the best,

Tom

Thank U. Even though I should say that I've been capturing HDV footage and VHS and Super VHS tapes through the Canopus box in the Final Cut Pro. That call my attention that How come I can not capture DV footage being the FCP more professional software with more options right?

Thanks for your suggestions, I'll get the cable tomorrow and let's see... Happy New Year!

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limakid
Thank U. Even though I should say that I've been capturing HDV footage and VHS and Super VHS tapes through the Canopus box in the Final Cut Pro.

I am not sure I fully understand this. My understanding is that you may have been able to get the Canopus box to act as a simple FireWire hub, in effect connecting your camera to the Mac. However, the Canopus box itself is only an analog to DV-25 or DV-25 to analog converter. Using the box as a "pass through" or FireWire hub is certainly outside the designed purpose of the box (and is different from using it to convert VHS/S-VHS analog video to DV-25).

[I don't have my ADVC330 box available, nor the time, so I can't check into whether it can act as a hub/bridge for a FireWire signal.]

In any case, you shouldn't be using the Canopus device as a FireWire bridge/hub, even if it may work (sometimes). Doing so just adds unneeded complications to your setup (and is something you failed to mention in your previous posts over the past couple of months). So, your video was helpful in that it showed your use of the Canopus box (which you hadn't mentioned before)...

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limakid
That call my attention that How come I can not capture DV footage being the FCP more professional software with more options right?

While HDV and DV-25 can both be captured over FireWire, they most likely don't use the same protocols (maybe not the best way to phrase it). I do know that Canon's FireWire implementation for DV-25 is quite poor (or has been so in many cameras I 've used in the past several years), requiring the use of the "FireWire NTSC Basic" device control setting in FCP.

The first thing to do is to use a single, direct FireWire cable connection between your Mac and the camera. Then, you can try using "FireWire NTSC Basic" device control if the regular/default setting doesn't seem to work.


-Dave

Thanks a lot. It's really useful this kind of analysis. Yes, With HDV footage I've been using the Canopus box as a hub/bridge. When you say that this procedure "just adds unneeded complications", what do you mean? more cables? (of course) but also you think that the video quality decreses because of too much filtering?

Today I just got a 4 pin to 9 pin FWire cable. Before I just got the 6pin to 9pin in ONE store only because in my country (Peru) is really hard to find this accessories.

Sometimes I don't mention some things because I scare to say something really unnecessary. For example, I did a succesful capture of DV footage in Pinnacle Studio (in Windows PC). How I got it with Pinnacle and not in FCP? Well, I didn't think is necessary to mention because Pinnacle and FCP belongs to different O.S., plataforms and so on.

Now, I wil try the FW NTSC Basic, because with the new FW cable (4-9) I am facing the Out Of Sync. The capture is working but not in sync. I'll check some posts, threads here and if I don't find the explanation I'll upload a new video.

Other thing I don't know is what you mention: "DV-25". I just know DV as a general format. Well, thanks once again.

It's an unnecessary complication because the Canopus box is really a convertor - it's designed to convert an analogue signal to a digital one.

When you shoot DV25 (which is 'normal' DV - the general one you're thinking of) it's already digital, so you don't need to convert it to anything else for the computer to recognise it. You just need to plug in the firewire cable and send the digital signal - the 1s and 0s from the camera - to the computer.

Is the capture out of synch once you have finished capturing? It could be that your computer just doesn't have the grunt to display it correctly during capture, but once you have closed the capture window and start working, it might be fine.

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limakid
Thanks a lot. It's really useful this kind of analysis. Yes, With HDV footage I've been using the Canopus box as a hub/bridge. When you say that this procedure "just adds unneeded complications", what do you mean? more cables? (of course) but also you think that the video quality decreses because of too much filtering?

Yes, using a hub, whether a real hub or the Canopus box in your case, may cause issues. It is always better to use one cable with no adapter plugs.

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limakid
Today I just got a 4 pin to 9 pin FWire cable. Before I just got the 6pin to 9pin in ONE store only because in my country (Peru) is really hard to find this accessories.

Yes, I suspect that obtaining certain cables may be more difficult, depending on one's location.

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limakid
Sometimes I don't mention some things because I scare to say something really unnecessary. For example, I did a succesful capture of DV footage in Pinnacle Studio (in Windows PC). How I got it with Pinnacle and not in FCP? Well, I didn't think is necessary to mention because Pinnacle and FCP belongs to different O.S., plataforms and so on.

You should always describe in complete detail how your system is connected, cabling, converters, OS version, etc.

As in this situation, you initially omitted this detailed information, because you didn't think it was relevant. Having done technical support many years ago, I can tell you that this is often one of the biggest problems when trying to help someone.

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limakid
Now, I wil try the FW NTSC Basic, because with the new FW cable (4-9) I am facing the Out Of Sync. The capture is working but not in sync. I'll check some posts, threads here and if I don't find the explanation I'll upload a new video.

You've answered your earlier questions. The way you had things set up before (two cables and using the Canopus box as a FW hub) didn't work for DV-25 footage.

Now that you've eliminated the cabling (and Canopus) issue, you can focus on the camera settings and FCP device control settings. As I may have mentioned (and others, as well), Canon's implementation of FW device control protocols is substandard when compared with other manufacturers. FCP is quite particular (finicky, perhaps) about interfacing with certain cameras. iMovie may work more easily with your camera, but it doesn't do as robust a job as FCP (no timecode, etc.), so don't conclude that FCP is somehow flawed.

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limakid
Other thing I don't know is what you mention: "DV-25". I just know DV as a general format. Well, thanks once again.

The term "DV format" video is probably more correct. However, many people are lazy with technical terminology and the term "DV-25" is sometimes (often) used to be more succinct, as "DV" can simply be interpreted as "digital video." The "25" part refers to the bit rate of the video recording used by the DV format (25 Mbits/sec). DVCPRO (DVCPRO 25) and DVCAM also use the same bit rate, I believe, but the tapes move more quickly (fewer drop outs), and they provide better support for audio and video synch ("locked audio".

If you camera supports it, you should always use DVCAM or DVCPRO (25) instead of the DV format.

Sorry if I confused you by using the term DV-25.

-----

Let us know how the different device control settings work out, and if using FW NTSC Basic helps with the synch issue you described. You may also try "uncontrollable device" and do a "capture now" to see if that works better. Again, it may be an issue due to Canon's FW implementation.

And, as Jude mentioned, check your footage after you've captured it to see if it is synched. You may also try capturing smaller clips.

-Dave

Thanks Dave:

Sorry if I confused you by using the term DV-25.

Actually the DV footage I am capturing belongs to the year 2000 (10 years go). I used at that time a JVC MiniDV Cam (domestic one). It was maybe one of the first miniDV cams I saw because it doesn't have a FireWire jack yet! In the respective manual says that the input (recording) is digital but the output is analog.

So, How can I know if that 10 years old footage was captured at 25Mbps or 12 or 18...

If I have to capture from that camera, of course I need the converter box. The JVC camera just have audio and video outputs through RCA jacks. Also has S-Video out.

Now I am using a newer (current) Canon HDV/DV camera as a player-source to capture that 10 years DV footage, with a direct cable 9-4.

Results so far:
- I noticed that when I set FireWire NTSC NDF the sync improves a lot. Or maybe it's perfect. Also I set up Video Playback: None. But I have the Apple Cinema Display 24". Should I use this?

Issues:
Drop frames. The captures stops suddenly, after several minutes which is impossible to anticipate. The source player stops. I stop the camera and a new video file is created with that last footage. Sometimes during capture I see in the capture window a red screen. Is that a syntom of drop frames? When I check that captured movie, I don't see those red slugs.

"You may also try capturing smaller clips." Does mean that if I have longer clips like 45-60 minutes, could it be out of sync as time as the footage advances?

Thanks a lot again and I see that there is a lot I need know to improve the workflow.

Regards,
MARIO V.

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Mario
Thanks Dave:

I'm sure everyone who contributed to this thread provided good advice.

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Mario
Actually the DV footage I am capturing belongs to the year 2000 (10 years go). I used at that time a JVC MiniDV Cam (domestic one). It was maybe one of the first miniDV cams I saw because it doesn't have a FireWire jack yet! In the respective manual says that the input (recording) is digital but the output is analog.

So, How can I know if that 10 years old footage was captured at 25Mbps or 12 or 18...

If I have to capture from that camera, of course I need the converter box. The JVC camera just have audio and video outputs through RCA jacks. Also has S-Video out.

Now I am using a newer (current) Canon HDV/DV camera as a player-source to capture that 10 years DV footage, with a direct cable 9-4.

The DV format (miniDV or DV-25) is a fixed bit rate format/codec, so it is always (or should be) the same.

You are pretty lucky the tape plays back now. If you had access to a high quality DV format tape deck, it may work better than capturing off of the new Canon camera (or not).

If the synch issue is not one of drift (synch varies over time), then you could always adjust the synch after capture.

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Mario
Results so far:
- I noticed that when I set FireWire NTSC NDF the sync improves a lot. Or maybe it's perfect. Also I set up Video Playback: None. But I have the Apple Cinema Display 24". Should I use this?

If the NDF setting seems to work better, it may be that the timecode on the tape was, in fact, recorded as NDF (which is not a problem). Video Playback is primarily for externally-connected broadcast monitors (or TVs), for using a computer display for Digital Cinema Desktop Preview. For capturing, you don't need to worry about that. In fact, leaving it set to "None" may reduce the load on FCP during capture (which could make a difference).

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Mario
Issues:
Drop frames. The captures stops suddenly, after several minutes which is impossible to anticipate. The source player stops. I stop the camera and a new video file is created with that last footage. Sometimes during capture I see in the capture window a red screen. Is that a syntom of drop frames? When I check that captured movie, I don't see those red slugs.

"You may also try capturing smaller clips." Does mean that if I have longer clips like 45-60 minutes, could it be out of sync as time as the footage advances?

Thanks a lot again and I see that there is a lot I need know to improve the workflow.

You'll need to look into your FCP settings a bit more. I would suggest that you read through the FCP manual, as it has quite a bit of good information. Or, you could use the LAFCPUG Store to order some training books, etc.

I don't experience synch issues when capturing, so someone else may want to address that point. But, yes, a lot of people suggest logging then capturing clips in chunks smaller than 45 min to 60 min. (depending on the tape capacity). If footage was recorded in "LP" mode, you may have more problems, as well.

There are a lot of things that can trip you up, but, luckily, you have a great resource here for help...



-Dave

Hello again:

This morning I captured a DV footage in clips of 10 minutes average and the sync was good, better than 30 minutes clip. FireWire NTSC NDF setting.

In this forum somebody suggested to use iMovie for capturing DV.

Well, I wanted to try something different because I didn't want to watch the DV capture every minute due the drop frames and unexpected stops. I have been capturing clips of 8-10 minutes and myself I stopped the capture and I checked back the files if the synchro was ok, and it was.

So, for 62 minutes of footage I got about 8 to 10 clips-mov files.

Now, I am capturing in the iMovie and the syncro is always ok, no problems, but I face a new issue: the capture is in *dv format and the clips are a lot. Sometimes I got clips of One Second, or two, or 8, etc. It's not practical. I ask if I make the edition in those DV files (by draging the dv files to the timeline), or is better to convert them to mov files?

Has the *dv video file better image quality than a *mov one because the data rate is 6.8 MBps instead of the 3.6MBps?

What is wrong with the AVI file? Because I can capture a whole footage of 60 minutes in AVI on a PC without stops, so AVI is lower quality than MOV even when the file sizes are almost the same?

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Dave
You'll need to look into your FCP settings a bit more. I would suggest that you read through the FCP manual, as it has quite a bit of good information. Or, you could use the LAFCPUG Store to order some training books, etc.

You know? I've been attending the lynda.com online courses and I watched the 95% of the FCP Essential Training. It gives you very important start basis, very good, but many issues are not discussed. They don't talk about drop frames or the problem of capturing, what I am having. I think that I have regular experience and it's time to know the meaning of every single button or comand in the FCP, but with illustrative examples. So, I need books but the one which really contains the information I need, no just "Easy Set Up". Thank U a lot and I gonna check the LAFCPUG books.

Thanks a lot.

Using iMovie is not a solution. The files are in .dv (DV Stream) format, with no timecode.

AVI is just as bad. It's a PC format that has never worked well in FCP.

You need to trace the source of the problem with your FCP DV capture problems. These aren't good, professional workarounds. And DV is about the lightest load you can give to an FCP system.

The #1 cause of dropped frames is inadequate storage drives for the Scratch Disk. What are you using? I don't think I saw this information on your past posts.


www.derekmok.com

Mario,

Check out your User Preferences in FCP. There are a couple of settings related to capturing media. On timecode breaks, for example, FCP may create a new clip, depending on your settings. Also, dropped frames during capture can cause the capture to abort, again depending on the setting.

Most of the training books don't address much in the way of troubleshooting... That's why forums like this are useful...



-Dave

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derekmok
The #1 cause of dropped frames is inadequate storage drives for the Scratch Disk. What are you using? I don't think I saw this information on your past posts.

My scratch disk is sometimes the only one hard disk of the mac. (For now, I don't have a 2nd drive to be for video scratch. Other times I use an external hard drive. In both situations, I got drop frames when capturing DV.

With HDV I had very very little problems of drop frames with MiniDV HD tapes which has been used for 4th. time. I wonder if a tape re-recorded 3 times or more, increases the chances for drop frames?

Thanks again.