What do I charge?

Hi,

I finished picture locking a short film (20 min) and the client (L A County) has expressed interest in color correction and audio work. The footage badly needs this, it has a nasty deep orange hue throughout most of the interior footage because I think they didn't white balance on set.

The audio is better but they often didn't leave room between lines of dialogue, so there's a number of drops in audio. The lack of room tone is disappointing as well.

The client is an individual so an hourly rate is probably not an option. I was thinking to either present him with a rate for everything or individual rates for the following:

Color Correction
Color Grading
Clean up the dialogue tracks
Sound fx
Sound Design
Sound mixing

I'm not a famous editor with accolades but I do a good job. What should I charge?

Thank You

How long do you estimate it will take you? Work out what your hourly rate times this is, then charge that, or apply a discount to that if you want to. But don't grossly undercharge, or you'll end up feeling resentful and ripped off, and that's bad for your creative soul, and your business.

It's probable that you'll underestimate how long it will take anyway - almost everyone does. So keep that in mind when you charge. If possible, leave room for re-negotiations if things change.

For example, I recently quoted on a 12 page script, thinking it was going to come out at about 12 minutes long, but with all the little additions that came in the final script, it's topped out at more than 23 minutes long, and now being broken into segments. 23 minutes in individual segments is a lot more time spent that 12 minutes of straight script. Lucky for me the client is ok with re-negotiations, but if they forced me to apply my original quote, I'd be losing money, and getting grumpy about it.

I don't break out different charges for different tasks. I'm one person using a workstation and the amount I charge is the same no matter the software.

You need to figure how many hours / days it will take to complete the task.

Multiply your rate x the hours / days and that gives you the amount.

That's essentially we do here for all our estimates.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
biscardicreative.com

Thanks you.

Jude,

Yep, I tend to underestimate the amount of time it will take, got to improve on this. How much raw footage did you end up dealing with on that project? Was the final script 20 plus pages or did they added scenes on set and just shoot a ton of footage?

Too many editors undercharge.

Here's what we found to be the best recipe for determining local prices.

The important step is educating clients on the amount of time it takes to actually do the work. Explain the real time involved in digitizing, ingesting, logging, writing, creating effects, music royalty costs, etc. Put it in terms of people you have to pay and what they charge you (even if you are doing all the work - these are separate jobs and fees that must be paid for)

1 - Shop full service shops in your area -- what do they charge per hour? Do they break it down for editor's time and edit suite time?

2 - Remember that to stay in business you must make a profit. Markup = Profit.

3 - Remember you must pay your own taxes, social security, health care -- you must factor that into every job.

When I started, I was so anxious for the work I actually bid myself down anticipating the client would balk at higher prices.

If you want to raise your rates, start compiling glowing reviews from past clients and put them on your web site. Word of mouth is your best advertising and your best leverage for better pay.

Your competition determines your price. Here in the Washington, DC area there are two levels of editing service - high end production houses that charge 175 to 300 an hour for an edit suite with all the bells and whistles and a pro who can make them work. The other end - the road warriors - former Network News editors who've been blown out the door by the major networks and replaced with 20 something preditors -- folks who can shoot edit and produce -- with quality rarely the number one consideration.

The Road Warriors often have no idea of their real worth and they charge as low as 40 or 50 an hour to do the same thing the 175 to 300 an hour editors are doing. And they pay for their own gear and even go to the client to do the job! The only difference between the two? The production houses are viable businesses and the Road Warriors live paycheck to paycheck.

Speaking of paychecks -- do everything in your power to avoid becoming a bank that offers your clients free loans. Banks don't do that. Neither should you.

When I formed my own company (I was a network correspondent who in my formative years shot and edited my own stories in smaller markets -- even shooting on an old film camera CP-16 and processing the film!) I was so thrilled to get a project I told the client - sure - no problem - pay me when we're done. And the client would - often 60 to 90 days after they'd received their video. That meant no cash flow, my own bills didn't get paid until the client decided they felt like paying their bill.

An older wiser Road Warrior will insist on a signed contract, a statement of work including how many "re-edits" you will do before you start running the meter again, and at least 1/2 or 1/3 deposit up front with balance due upon completion and a deadline date. We do not deliver the final project until we receive the check. The client sees watermarked or low res comps on line so they know they have the finished product ready to go.

Remember, you are running a business. You must build in enough profit to carry you through slower times and allow you to pay your bills while you prospect for new work. No matter how trustworthy a client is, you must insist on a fair wage plus a markup of your services to stay in business - and insist on payment terms that insure your cash flow.

As the slogan says on the back of our currency, In God We Trust - all others pay cash.

....and there's reasonable "stay in business" markup and "piggish" markup. We do work for a local PR company (well we used to until we tired of their piggish ways) They would squeeze us down to the lowest possible price and then mark up our work to their client 100 percent or more. This is not unusual in the PR middleman world.

When we were given additional work, the PR company insisted our price remain the same so they could retain the same profit. I suggested that a 100 percent profit for shaking the client's hand while we did all the work wasn't the best way to keep the client, or us as a sub contractor.

The PR company eventually lost us both and a good stream of income while we made them look great to their clients.

There's a middle ground between gluttony and temperance. The professionals stay in that sweet spot and continue to delight their clients.




Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
North Bethesda, Maryland

There was only 2 hours of raw footage - the shoot team is really efficient, and the speaker can rattle off pages of auto cue without a hitch, but there were lots of additional 're-creation' scenes that were a lot longer than anticipated. Also, there was a lot of greenscreen work which at first was supposed to be 'just a bit of greenscreen with some text in the background' that turned into stuff that needed animation, side-of-screen pics, filters and a fair bit of layer work. Then because it was so long, the whole thing had to be broken into chapters, which meant a re-edit of the entries and exits of each chapter.

So it was mainly levels of complication that added to the time taken - and a lot of clients don't really know what it is they want until they see what they have asked for, then have ideas for improvements. That stuff can come under 'changes' most of the time, because you quote on what they ask you to do in the first place. You can't be expected to quote on something they haven't thought up yet.

Jude Cotter Wrote:

> For example, I recently quoted on a 12 page
> script, thinking it was going to come out at about
> 12 minutes long, but with all the little additions
> that came in the final script, it's topped out at
> more than 23 minutes long, and now being broken
> into segments. 23 minutes in individual segments
> is a lot more time spent that 12 minutes of
> straight script. Lucky for me the client is ok
> with re-negotiations, but if they forced me to
> apply my original quote, I'd be losing money, and
> getting grumpy about it.


A better way to quote on these type of jobs is to say it will cost X amount per 1 minute of finished program. That way if they add in a few scenes on set you are covered.

Yeah that's pretty much what we do, but I guesstimated 12 minutes, and it grew.

Disagree with the finished minute estimate --

a two-shot in town interview finished minute costs far less than a graphics heavy, multi-layered, we had to fly across the country, rent a car, hotel and crews - finished minute.

Clients always want a flat rate, no surprises price. We say we're happy to do that if we know all the parameters going in. If the parameters change - the price changes. You end up working for far less than you are worth per hour with flat rates without a statement of work and very specific parameters.

as Jude said:

"Also, there was a lot of greenscreen work which at first was supposed to be 'just a bit of greenscreen with some text in the background' that turned into stuff that needed animation, side-of-screen pics, filters....."


The reality and time consumed is far more than originally planned on your your estimate. Finished minute works for very simple shoots and edits -- not production and travel heavy projects where baggage fees and high plane fares can send your costs through the roof.

Andy Field Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Disagree with the finished minute estimate --
>
> a two-shot in town interview finished minute costs
> far less than a graphics heavy, multi-layered, we
> had to fly across the country, rent a car, hotel
> and crews - finished minute.
>
> Clients always want a flat rate, no surprises
> price. We say we're happy to do that if we know
> all the parameters going in. If the parameters
> change - the price changes. You end up working
> for far less than you are worth per hour with flat
> rates without a statement of work and very
> specific parameters.
>
> as Jude said:
>
> "Also, there was a lot of greenscreen work which
> at first was supposed to be 'just a bit of
> greenscreen with some text in the background' that
> turned into stuff that needed animation,
> side-of-screen pics, filters....."
>
>
> The reality and time consumed is far more than
> originally planned on your your estimate.
> Finished minute works for very simple shoots and
> edits -- not production and travel heavy projects
> where baggage fees and high plane fares can send
> your costs through the roof.

I was only referring to editing not full production costs. But yes, I agree a full breakdown of what is required and bid on should be part of any negotiation

The really hard thing to factor is the design stage, where they don't know what they want, really, so you design something, and they mess endlessly with that - colours, fonts, which way the fonts are justified, where inserts appear, colour styling, background elements - all those little things that take 3 minutes if you have total say yourself, but weeks and weeks if there is a committee involved.

Put in an estimate the time you think it will take and put a number to it -- tell them there's a deadline for decisions where you will lock this in - and if they make decisions by committee - the committee must decide with one voice on a date certain - changing everything after the fact will have a per hour number to that - and put it in the agreement.

We did a project for a non profit this summer -- I got sign off from the chairman and everyone down the line for an awards dinner piece we turned around in 2 days at their conference - everyone's happy - piece is done.

Not so fast -- we want this change and that change. Made the changes -- ok now we want this and that.

I stopped them and explained that each change - even a title change would take several hours on a 1/2 hour program - reconform and recompress from XDCAM 422 HD (a bear of format to output - it's really just a high bit rate HDV - avoid it!) They couldn't understand that -- so i brought it to their office and said here -- you watch the spinning beach ball for the next two hours while I get lunch and see what I mean. It was the only way to impress them with the fact that every change - no matter how small, takes time -- I told them they'd save hundreds if not thousands if they made all their changes at once.

They never did the slow drip of change by committee again after that.

Your time is money -- communicate that to your clients in the most creative, effective way and you'll both be happy.!

Yeah, like you say, there's the perfect world solution, and then the reality. Often a committee can't seem to comprehend (or even believe, I suspect) the time it takes.

All my stuff has allowances for a certain number of changes, then they get per hour charges again after that, but estimating design time is just horrendous. I hate it the most when you design something from the ground up and then they decide they suddenly have corporate branding they forgot about, which you could have applied in the first place.

I also hate it when you get an urgent message that pushes the deadline back, cause they need it right away, then it takes them three months to make a decision about a change that was urgent when they asked for it.

But, that's clients. I'm sure my hairdresser hates me for much the same reasons lol.

> then it takes them three months to make a decision

Not that I'm your hairdresser, but when that happens, I bill them straightaway. And of course, I bill for keeping the project in the system after a certain period of delay.



www.strypesinpost.com

That particular client is a monolith who has four terrabytes of their own hardrives with me, so they get latitude. But it's still crazy-making when, out of their 2000 odd staff, it feels like 1998 have to have a say before any progression happens. I find it's the big government groups that are the most complex to deal with.

Educating the client helps. I often go in and present a humorous "why a production costs so much" presentation to the key decision makers before we start anything. They love being in house budget heroes when they can come in under budget on a project and we help them put on their super cape by explaining exactly how to that.

This little film will help them understand (someone posted this on this forum about a month and a half ago )

How much does a film cost?

When the client understands they control the price of the production -- and have a signed piece of paper detailing how they do that - there's rarely any dispute or grumbling about running over budget!

That's hilarious. Love it.

0 -2 years of professional experience - 25- 35 hr
2- 5 years of professional experience - 35-40 hr
5- 10 years of professional experience - 40 -55 hr
10-20 years of professional experience - 55--70 hr
20 years and up - 70 and up.

With demonstrable skillset and portfolio, of course.

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Play from Playhead to Out Mark with Shift-P !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
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Interesting post, Loren. Well within the ballpark for something that's so variable. About 15 years ago I would have killed in cold blood to see someone put it so simply, with numbers and dollar signs.

Would you say that is an editor showing up at your door with trimmed fingernails ready to edit, or an editor with a Mac Pro and a Kona card and a home office in his valley condo? Interested as to how you would adjust the rate to match the opposite scenario.

The trimmed nails are worth at least another 50 dollars an hour!

[Interested as to how you would adjust the rate to match the opposite scenario.]

That's a bargaining chip for sure.

[The trimmed nails are worth at least another 50 dollars an hour!]

lol. I prefer finely turned ankles and no facial hardware. In fact, I DEDUCT ten dollars for tongue studs.

A lot of this depends on the industry. I mean, Walter Murch makes more than these figures.
This is why I'm focusing on feature, series, and docu longform editing. You can actually make a living.

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Play from Playhead to Out Mark with Shift-P !

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Now available at KeyGuide Central.
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Ooh! Tongue studs! She's hired!



www.strypesinpost.com

Just shows to go you!

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Play from Playhead to Out Mark with Shift-P !

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Now available at KeyGuide Central.
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Loren the rates were interesting, but I didn't see an answer to the question if those rates applied only to the finely tuned and skilled "worker bee" or did it include a Macpro tower, video drives, etc..

I live in the Northwest, but work for clients all over the globe and we base our fee's on $150 an hour and have no problem getting it. Am I delusional and/or lucky or is this considered a fair to better than fair rate. I've been editing HD on a Mac since '2000 when it was Cinewave and if you could get 5 minutes from computer to tape it was a really good day, which is about how long it took just to figure out if it was going to work or not.

thx..Jim Watt

Quote

0 -2 years of professional experience - 25- 35 hr
2- 5 years of professional experience - 35-40 hr
5- 10 years of professional experience - 40 -55 hr
10-20 years of professional experience - 55--70 hr
20 years and up - 70 and up.

With demonstrable skillset and portfolio, of course.

Quote

About 15 years ago I would have killed in cold blood to see someone put it so simply, with numbers and dollar signs.

That's probably because it is NOT that simple...these prices per are waaaaaaaaay over simplified (maybe for a straight cutter on client gear at client's studio). Are these rates for your SERVICES...or your SERVICES including your GEAR and expenses Loren? Very big difference in price per hour. I would add $25 - $50 per hour to the above numbers if you are supplying all gear / tape & media stock / Digital Delivery / Render Time (FX / Compositing / 3D) / etc.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I also charge differently depending on the type of work, and the amount of work associated with the job. Long term jobs get a big discount over jobs that will only take two or three hours, but effectively make you miss out on a full day of work elsewhere.

But Loren's guide is still a very helpful start point.

...and deadlines dictate rates as well. Quick turnaround work is much more (I charge double to squeeze 5 days work into 2 day rush jobs because I have to work day & night).

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

> I live in the Northwest, but work for clients all
> over the globe and we base our fee's on $150 an
> hour and have no problem getting it.

I'm charging in the $125 range, and have no trouble filling my schedule.

My point was not that Loren's numbers were accurate, but when I was 20, "charge what your time is worth" didn't mean much to me.

$125 - $150 per hour with your own equipment sounds about right to me.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.