down converting 2k file to work in FCP 5 Pre-Intel

I was given 2k files scanned at 24 fps in QuickTime format 2045x1556. I need to cut a trailer from the movie. I tried DVC PRO 720 24p but it wants 9 hours to render! What shall I do? I'm using FCP 5 Pre-Intel.

Have someone else do it for you on a newer computer. If that is the only computer you have, you are stuck with the long conversion time.


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The 2k quality is superb, but of course I'll have to down convert. So I was thinking of 720 24p, because the QuickTime files I got were 2045x1556.

Also, the time base becomes 29.97, not 24p. I don't understand why. How do I keep the 24p? Does the FCP 5.1 use only 29.97 or should I use 23.98?

I don't want to start editing before I have the format issues resolved, because then I'll have to backtrack, and that will set me back timewise.

Is 1920x1080 another possible format? What about the other formats listed under presets?

Thanks for the help, Shane.

are you doing an offline edit, or do you have to create the final?
how is the trailer going to be delivered?

is ProRes an option? i dont think it is in FCP5
in which case DVCProHD might be your best bet.

FCP can handle 24p no worries,
you must be doing something wrong.


nick

Thanks for the response, Nick. Yes, I'm doing an offline edit.

The movie was scanned to gpx files. I was given a QuickTime version of the movie -- 170 Gigs. The gpx files are 1.5 Terabytes.

The reels have time code starting at: 1 hr, 2 hr, 3 hr, etc. So then I have to edit the movie and turn it over to a post production house for conforming and outputting of the DI. I've never done this!

I have injested the QuickTime files. They are 2k in size and scanned at 24 frames.

Should I convert them to DVCProHD? At what frame rate? 23.98 or 29.97? I converted one file for trial as 720 24p. I rendered it in the timeline. It took one hour. It doesn't play smoothly. But i guess this won't matter in the final output, as the movie is destined for a theatrical screening. However, having said that, I will also need to output a version for television. So what shall I do?

I need to know what is the best format to do my offline edit in, so I can have a smooth transition to the final stage, when I deliver my gpx files for conforming.

As for the trailer, I suppose I can edit in DVCProHD or what do you suggest?

Thanks for the advice.

filmman: What is that 2045x1556 thing? If the pixels are square the aspect ratio is 1.314:1! You say it is "in QuickTime format" but what codec is it in?

Preferably transcode to an editing codec with the true frame rate, square pixels, honest picture proportions, and no interframe compression. In FCP5, try the Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC). Unlike DVCProHD, AIC encodes with a genuine 24p. Also AIC lets you encode with oddball pixel counts -- 2045x1556 could be encoded as 946x720. But for smoother FCP editing you're better off using standard pixel counts and introducing pillarbox to maintain picture proportions. I don't know if 960x720 is standard enough for FCP5's RTE. You can use the very standard 1280x720 with wide pillarboxing. That pillarbox adds a lot of pixels, but very little size to the file.

Use Compressor to do well-controlled pillarboxing (padding). An old post might help with that.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

Thanks Dennis. Here are the settings:
Scanned from 35mm film with Arri Scanner.

Vid Rate: 24 fps
Frame Size: 2048x1556 (entire Academy Frame, includes sound track area)
Pixel Aspect: Square
Field Dominance: None

Sequence Settings:

Frame Size: HD (960x720)
Editing Timeline: 23.98
Compressor: DVCPRO HD 720p60

Compression Setting: Custom
23.976

I hope this helps. I'm trying to figure out which way to go. I need to output a file that can be used by a postproduction lab for creating a DI for theatrical release and a file that can be used for television release. These two files, I'm assuming, are going to be different?

Thanks for the help.

filmman: Since 1932, "Academy Frame" has meant one thing: 0.825" × 0.600" for picture. That picture aspect ratio is 1.375. There's no sound track in the Academy Frame. The sound track can run beside it.

Your numbers 2048x1556 are implausible, and I wonder if you're missing some information. Since you received a QuickTime file, although you don't say what codec that file came in, you can play it in QuickTime before trancoding it to something else. When played, how much of your 2048x1556 thing contains picture? What else does it contain? Does the picture look undistorted?

When editing, you must see that which you're editing, not distorted or cropped or jumpy. When editing offline for a postproduction lab you must not make something too weird for them.

Your DVCProHD is 60p, so your 24p original occurs with a 3:2 cadence. That's unwise because your cuts will break the cadence, and then how will the downstream lab restore 24p? So I suggested using AIC 24p instead.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

Thanks for the note Dennis.

The soundtrack area was scanned with the picture. I assume the scanner was set up to scan the full frame, as in super-35mm scanning.

So I can crop it out and end up with a standard 1:1.37 frame.

I will use the AIC codec then -- as you suggested. I want to end up with a 24 fps edit.

Also, I'd like to crop the 1:1.375 to an 1:1.85 frame or a 1:2.40 (old 2.33:1)

How does all this sound to you, am I on the right track? I'm going to test a short piece of the film next.

The codec of the project is ProRes 422 HQ -- which I don't think I have on FCP 5.1.

So I guess Apple Intermediate Codec is the one I should use to edit, right?

Thanks for the help.

Not if you want to match back to the masters. Apple Intermediate doesn't have timecode...it won't bring over the source timecode. DVCPRO HD is what you want to use.

And you really need to think about updating...your system is very limited, and over a decade old.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Aha! Thanks, Shane! Ok, I'm glad I waited before I converted all those files!

But DVCPRO HD doesn't have 24p. It has 60p, and when filmman cuts the 60p he will break the 3:2 cadence making it difficult, or impossible, to match his edit back to 24p. That's why to use AIC instead.

Is it really necessary to match back to the sound master(s) via timecode? Isn't the sound from the continuous optical track? If the supplied ProRes had its soundtrack at 48 kHz and 24bit isn't it the sound master, and if the AIC sequence is set likewise, what is lost?

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

Filmman:
the frame rate of your edit file HAS to match the original, 24fps
ESPECIALLY if you are converting via a timeline

also your timecodes have to match the original.
for an offline edit, you should consider adding burnt in timecode (BITC)
use the Timecode Read filter if you are adding the filter to the CLIP,
but if you want the BITC in the mask area, it's a bit trickier

as this is an offline edit, you could use just about any codec / frame size to edit with (DV for instance)

i've never used AIC.
can one ADD TC to it?


nick

I find it odd that you say that....because I've shot and cut many projects 720p 23.98. Some shot on DVCPRO HD tape, and pulldown was removed. And a lot shot on P2 at 720p 24pN...that shoots 23.98.

And there are sequence settings for 23.98...so...


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

the source material is 24fps, not 24p

and i've just tested AIC, it does carry a TC track,
so will carry a sequence TC, or if you are doing a batch export it carries original TC and reel#


VIC:
i'll add that getting editable material from those files would be pretty easy for Shane, Denis, or me,
it will be a bit beyond your knowledge without someone writing up a step-by-step tutorial (no offence, just facts)
Vic, maybe you should offer to pay some one to help you out?

meanwhile here's a quick step-by-step

- make a new sequence with the correct settings:
24fps, your choice of Standard Def 4/3 or HD 16/9

- copy it 5 times

- put your files into them
- scale the clips to fit
- add appropriate masking above the clips
- adjust sequence TC to match clip TC
- add TC filter to the Mask, set TC to match clip TC
- export,
- re-impot
- add reel# to the files

Shane: "... and pulldown was removed", but what happened to the edit when pulldown was removed?
Pulldown is removed from the 60p by taking a frame and throwing away the next two, then taking a frame and throwing away the next one, etc., etc.
The editor has made cuts in the 60p and expects his edit to flow the way he edited it. It won't after pulldown is removed.
To give a tiny example: where the original 24p has A,B,C,D,E,F,G... the 60p has A,A,A,B,B,C,C,C,D,D,E,E,E,F,F,G,G,G... Suppose the editor removes one of the Bs and one of the Cs, creating A,A,A,B,C,C,D,D,E,E,E,F,F,G,G,G... Now remove the pulldown. You get A,B,C,E,E,G,G,... Hey! You didn't remove any D or add any E or remove any F or add any G! Imagine how A,B,C,E,E,G,G... will look at 24 fps on the screen.

Much better to edit the 24p in 24p.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

filmman: Your original number 2045 became 2048 in your fourth post. Maybe your 1556 number should have been 1536. 2048x1536 could scan the full 4-perf super-35 frame with aspect ratio 1.33:1. Then when you crop the soundtrack off the side, the aspect ratio won't change to 1.375:1; instead it will decrease. Doesn't the 2048x1536 scan show thick frame lines above and/or below the image? They also need cropping, which might take you to 1.375:1. Have you looked at the thing? Your system must have the ProRes decoder installed.

Put the received 2048x1536 24p ProRes HQ file into Compressor and make a quarter size 1024x768 24p AIC file. That will be your offline proxy. Your system is able to code and decode AIC, and 1024x768 24p doesn't require much processing power. If you can then do all further steps, including resizing and cropping, on that AIC in FCP, a later conformer could substitute the genuine original for the proxy and apply your FCP project file to it.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

I've been running tests on the QuickTime files. I've converted a few frames to AIC. The result is a 2:1 frame size!

I did an export to DVCPro HD 24p but the frame rate is 23.98

All the test produce a larger area around the original Academy Frame. How do I crop the resulting frames? I want to end up with a 1:1.85 frame. Or even a 1:1.78 would be okay.

Whatever I export, the result is a red line in the timeline, which means I have to render.

I try cropping out the soundtrack area through the Motion tab in FCP. I also crop out the excess area which has been scanned. I end up with an odd dimension for a frame.

This is way too complicated, but I wanted to thank everyone for responding to this post so no one thinks I'm not doing anything on my end. I'm trying to figure out how to:

1) convert the 2k QuickTime files so I can actually see normal motion in the playback window.
2) end up with an edit that the conformer can use to assemble the final movie from the DPX files.

Happy Labor Day!

Okay, just to recap a bit and report my results so others who have followed this thread may benefit from the expertise of the three editors responding.

I opened a DVCPro24p project sequence in FCP 5.1 (latest version before Intel) and set the:

Frame Size: 960x720
Aspect Ration: 960x720 (16:9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: HD (960X720)
Editing Time Base: 23.976

Clicked 'Advanced'

QT Video Settings: AIC 100%
Compressor Setting: Custom 23.98
Preset: Other

The red line appeared on the timeline; I rendered.

The results:

In the 'edit window':
Academy Frame in the middle of 'black space' on both sides...

I check 'item properties':
Video Rate: 23.976 fps on the left, and 24 fps on right for 'source'
Frame size: 2048x1536 on left, and 2048x1556 on right for 'source'
Pixel Aspect: square on both sides

In Canvas Window the frame is 16:9

Under 'Motion' tab:
Scaled: 145
Center: - 195.33 -47.88
Crop left: 21
Crop right: 13

This frame looks okay, but this is only what I see in 'Canvas View'; when I export via Compressor as AIC, I'm back to a squeezed square image with black on both sides, and the sequence doesn't play.

i have no idea what you are doing or why you are doing it that way, but then i guess you don't either


try these sequence settings:

AIC
1280x720 square pixels
24fps

put your clip in the timeline, scale it to taste.

set the sequence TC to match that of the clip.
(you HAVE verified the clip TC is accurate have you??? this is not a rhetorical question, an answer would be useful.)


then NEST the clip,
& apply widescreen mask and timecode reader filters to the nest.
TIP: OPTION click on the nest to open it into the viewer for filter tweaking.

render & export NOT via compressor


nick

Thanks Nick.

The 'nesting' helped; but the AIC 1280x720 did not have the 24 fps. There was only a 30p setting with the AIC, and that yielded a 29.97 frame rate once I had exported the nested sequence (I didn't use Compressor).

So I went with it and did the nesting and the export. I didn't need to apply the widescreen because it was already looking like 16:9. Besides the frame was being cropped in a way I didn't want.

I need to reframe the movie anyway, because I want to end up with an 1:1.85 frame at the end.

Here's the thing: at this point I don't care about the TC -- actually the TC is coming out alright regardless.

What I need is a decent image that I can edit in my FCP Studio (the latest version of non-Intel FCP software.)

All the images that I've rendered and outputted are excellent, whether DVCPro24p or AIC. The problem is that none of them look right -- they're all cockeyed. No matter what I do with rendering and 'motion', the end result is either the full Academy Frame in the middle with 40 percent black area around it, or a custom stretched or pillared frame on output.

So at this point I don't even know what I should ask. Just the same, thanks. I've learned a lot about dealing with these sort of issues. I suppose there will be a lot more such issues in the future as this type of technology is here to stay.

you need to create this sequence manually,
not use a pre-set.

for what it's worth, NONE of the sequence pre-sets in FCP are true 24fps.
24p is 23.976
(and 30p is 29.97)

if, as you say, your file is 24fps, then you really need to put it in a timeline which is also 24fps,
or you will have no end of problems.


16/9 is not 1.85:1.
it's sort of close, so maybe you don't need to worry about it?


nick

I looked for a sequence preset that had 24 fps and I found DV NTSC 48 kHz - 24.

I cropped the full Academy frame to 640x480. The image looked acceptable.

I put the scale at 160 in Motion and center at -132

This produced a 4:3 frame that encompassed the whole frame of the scenes of the movie.

Everything looked good, so I exported a test scene and then proceeded to export two of the reels of the movie, but then I realized that the resultant sequence ended up being 53 Gigs and it took 12 hours to render.

So now I have to buy a 4 Terabyte hard drive in order to work with the movie.

I'm not sure at this point if this is the right way to edit this movie.

Nevertheless, I report all this so others can benefit by the project I'm trying to work with in my pre-Intel FCP software.

This last attempt worked.

I used a DV NTSC - 24 setting under sequence settings.

I changed DV to AIC

I set the frame size to 'custom' and manually entered 960x720 pixels for frame size (preserving the 4:3 ratio)

frame rate is true 24 fps in this sequence setting only, so this was the only correct choice in my FCP 5.1 (last Pre-Intel software) -- to avoid 23.98 frame rate.

I rendered and exported the sequence -- and voila! success!

the render time was much shorter and the resulting frame was accurate and properly sized (960x720 HD)!

The size of the 20 minute file was also manageable -- 3.5 Gigs as compared to 53 Gigs!

The film was scanned at 2k and 24 fps. I had to reduce the 2k to 1k for editing.

With the 24fps AIC setting I was able to retain the same TC.

I had to crop out the soundtrack and the frame edges on the right and left of the frame, and then I had to reposition the frame so it would be centered. I ended up with a 1:1.33 frame, which is correct for how the film was shot -- although it was framed for 1:1.85 (but in 'those days' the cameras were set to shoot the whole frame and afterwards the TV safe and final release formats were created in post.

Thanks again for all the help -- everybody: Shane, Nick, and dcouzin.

Vic