Re: FCP and Avid question.

Background saving would be a huge improvement.

I assume all these suggestions you're sharing with us are also being posted to feedback as well.

All the best,

Tom

I'm really not sure how useful Feedback is. You never hear anything back so you have no idea if anyone even read it.

My personal preference is the Apple Bug Reporter because I know they definitely look at it and they sometimes even ask for more information if necessary.

[bugreport.apple.com] (requires free developer registration)

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

Jude Cotter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<Why? Because it is easy to steal. <<
>
> I never thought of it like that. That's actually
> quite a brilliant point.

See how hard Avid is now pushing its Academic version of Media Composer 5.

- Justin Barham -

Feedback is a compiled data base of user requests. The more people request a feature the more likely something might be done about it. If you don't say anything, nothing's going to happen. Bug reporting is only for bugs and does not cover feature requests.

All the best,

Tom

No, the bug reporter can be used for feature requests too. There are "Enhancement" and "Feature (New)" categories for this very purpose.

If you request something that has been requested before, it is marked as a duplicate. The features with the most duplicates get the most attention.

I prefer it to feedback because I know that my request has been viewed by a human in the Pro Apps division. You don't have that guarantee with Feedback.

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

>Or you are constantly opening up some "old cuts" project to dump your backup sequence into

What I do is I do a save as into a "history" folder, with a date stamp. Then I delete the older unneeded stuff from the current project to keep the project light.



www.strypesinpost.com

Bayes and Meaney and others have all said that feedback is view and cataloged.

"(requires free developer registration)"

This is not open to most users. The last time I looked it was $99/year. It also conflicts with other Apple IDs.

I already have 14 Apple IDs and passwords. Frankly I don't need another one.

All the best,

Tom

Tom Wolsky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "(requires free developer registration)"
>
> This is not open to most users. The last time I
> looked it was $99/year. It also conflicts with
> other Apple IDs.
>
> I already have 14 Apple IDs and passwords. Frankly
> I don't need another one.

Developer registration is free. The $99/year package is an additional option. I didn't bother paying for it.

You also do not need a separate Apple ID. All you are doing is linking your existing Apple ID to their developer database. That's all.

I'm not sure why this has turned into such a long debate, but to each their own. If you like feedback, use it, if not use the bug reporter.

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

This became a good thread. I read Ben Meyer's piece with great interest.

I'm surprised the in-house FCP team didn't test for basics like synch coming from Motion-- that seems bizarre. They use real editors under contract over there. Thank you, Ben, for supplying a real world example they can chew on.

Folks laud Avid's finely developed Trim Mode. I love it too, but get along without the bells and whistles, cobbling together a combo of keys to cycle a cut and trim it on the fly from the trim keys or keypad values. I never use Big Trim Edit in either system. Soon Automator should be able to let us make our own macro actions in FCP.

MC5.x has indeed opened the timeline to segment mode editing as a Smart Tool preference. This is the force of competition making its mark. But you still can't simply lower the opacity of a clip from the timeline just like audio gain, now can you? Or rotate or scale it without applying an effect and going into Effects Mode and its special control window? I cannot describe how often these capabilities come in handy in FCP. Modal, modal, modal. I just wanna cut.

Try enlarging a frame in Avid-- you don't do it in the Canvas, you do it in the Avid Pan and Zoom tool. I had to teach my students step by step to use it correctly, it is so not intuitive compared to FCP's Canvas grab-and-enlarge. These are among the most basic of documentary operations. FCP wins here.

IMHO, right now the only things keeping Avid dominant in the feature camp is Script Integration-- it's very cool-- (ScriptSync being an added function to cue up sound footage by the uttered line) along with Trim Tool enhancements and predictable media management-- and a Consolidate function which actually breaks out all the clips in a bin in the *order* they appear in the sequence.

A lot of what Avid editors need from AE's is the preparation of marked script in Avid, along with logging, capture, etc.

Oh, and Avid allows far bigger frames in Frames and Script view... been asking for that in FCP since near Day 1. Seems like basic stuff. Nearly useless in FCP, and worse as monitors get bigger and the dots more finely spaced...

Nice balanced thread! And nobody had to roll out Walter Murch to defend FCP feature positioning, surely a respite for this industry veteran who lead the way with high-profile projects.

Meanwhile, FCP is all over Showtime (and has been for many years now), pioneered by B.J. Sears (who edited two features for the late Gregory Hines on it) with help from guru-now-editor Daniel Fort. B.J. (who previously cut VIRTUOSITY, Russel Crowe's breakout film) got along fine without Script Integration-- he integrated the marked script on a stand just behind the keyboard below the edge of the screen. His FCP station was tricked out with a USB box containing all the basic nav and cut commands and his body memory was so Moviola-centric he had added a foot control to play the timeline! I have photos to prove all this.

It's now also in many SoCal ABC affiliates (they ordered 50 FCP KeyGuides a couple years ago!). This is the sort of stuff I pull out to back the claim "FCP has 50% of the market and all serious editors should know both systems."

But I also think Jude covered it beautifully.

- Loren

Today's FCP keytip:
Select a clip and set a motion effect keyframe on the fly with Control-K!
Navigate next/previous keyframes with Shift/Option - K !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

Hi everybody,

I´ve read this thread carefully and from a creativity point of view every point has been made.
My perspective is running facilities and I think MC5 saves all the (AVID-)hardware money, but you will put it in the mac (instead of HP) and buy a FCS license on top so you can sell your editing room more often. I could even buy an extra copy of Adobes prod bundle (Don´t under estimate cost and overhead for the room!). If I need a playout (no matter if FCP or AVID) I can use existing hardware to play it to tape. So basically I don´t care anymore if a client or editor likes to work on FCP or AVID, beause I can afford to have them both on the same hardware in the same editing room! Even Steve Jobs will be happy because we buy his hardware.
I think offering the conveniance of choice is the future, this is what all editors should do too!
Throw religion over board!

cheers

hamaca

Hey, Loren

Yes, it was surprising. And, in fact, Motion templates were working well until an update in late 2007. Something went buggy, and the Motion people never fixed it.

One other thing that's great about FCP: Right-clicking for composite modes. On the show I am cutting right now, they are compositing a lot of "burnt film" and leader markings over the Boris film-effect transitions. In order to do that in Avid, you need the Sapphire Math Ops filter, which comes with their bundle. So, that's another, what, $1000? For something that FCP does without even a plug-in.

I think trim mode is overrated. I mean, it's a good tool. It just isn't worth the raves that Avid-dedicated editors give it. I don't miss it when I am on FCP.

But, there's plenty I love about Avid, don't get me wrong. I'd love to have script sync on FCP.

Neither product should be turned into religion, to paraphrase hamaca.

Great thread!

Loren, why pan and zoom and not just the resize effect or 3D warp? You can indeed grab and enlarge in the Avid's record window FCP style if you are using resize or 3D warp. I do it all the time.

Ahh, pan and zoom is lossless. But is FCP resize lossless in terms of pixels? I do blowups in FCP allot and things don't seem to be lossless but I could be wrong.

Also Loren, I don't know if anyone can truly know if FCP has 50% of the market. And how do we define market? Industrials in Orlando? Commercials in NYC? TV in LA? I know that from cutting broadcast in LA my guess would be ( how can anyone really know ) is that in that market it's about 95% Avid and 5% FCP. But I am just going on the fact that myself and most editors I know do FCP jobs at a 1 out of 10 ratio. But then again there are editors who travel only in FCP loops so they may have a different take.

Features over ten million, probably the same ratio would be my guess just from the word on the street. I don't cut features.

Out of all these reply's, no one is paying enough attention to the cost factor.

I tried to go the Avid route early on. Sure they sell MC from student prices up to $2500.00. BUT, then what?
You have to use Avid hardware. That's the catch. Cost a boat-load of money to use Avid. Most independent's are not going to pony up 20,000 for Avid hardware when you can buy a Mac Pro and use FC or Premiere.

im an independent,
so to me that means for the most part, i'm doing the offline edit.
i dont need serious hardware for that, and i believe the Avid Mojo is reasonably priced,
although i haven't really looked into it. i'm happy on FCP for now.

but i know that many prefer to be a one-stop shop.

i have some friends running a moderate sized facility.
they have FCP and Avids, but do their finishing in Colour (probably moving onto Davinci) and FCP.


nick

Not to hijack this thread, but what the heck; Nick, how many of your friends are looking at going the Davinci Resolve route? Any finish in Smoke?

Michael Horton
-------------------

DM:

Out of all these reply's, no one is paying enough attention to the cost factor.

I tried to go the Avid route early on. Sure they sell MC from student prices up to $2500.00. BUT, then what? You have to use Avid hardware. That's the catch. Cost a boat-load of money to use Avid. Most independent's are not going to pony up 20,000 for Avid hardware when you can buy a Mac Pro and use FC or Premiere.

------------

Ya still have to buy some hardware and add ons in the FCP world but surely it doesn't add up to Avid's prices. You can get a turnkey MC5 Nitris DX for about $20,000.00 but I assume a jacked up FCP setup would be half of that.

I think Avid is more for tv series with a ton of money in the pipeline where they just go into a post house and rent ten suites for six months and call it a day, bill the network, done deal.

>Something went buggy, and the Motion people never fixed it.

That's the thing I didn't like about Motion, especially in FCS 2- the bugs. So far, in my limited use of Motion, FCS3 seems okay.


>beause I can afford to have them both on the same hardware in the same editing room

This is an interesting point too. More machines or having more softwares in one machine?


>no one is paying enough attention to the cost factor

Scott Simmons mentioned that "Avid is my VW, FCP is my Mazda." To what degree would you guys agree or disagree with this statement?



www.strypesinpost.com

As a Mazda owner, I think that's a stupid analogy. But, it's because I reject the vehicle dichotomy, not the software dichotomy.

Having owned VWs in the past and a current owner of a Mazda with 145K + miles, thats an insult to Avid owners.

Michael Horton
-------------------

There's an analogy that completely failed. I have no idea what he's trying to say.

All the best,

Tom

It´s three softwares on one Mac.
Invest is probably 12-15000 ? for the editing system and 3 softwares (non SDI!). Decent table, chairs, sofa, art, shared infrastructure (network, servers, storage, aircon, cabeling, playout/ingest ...) is 15000?, plus electricity, sandwiches, soda, yearly upgrades, receptionist, ...
I would recommend to equip 50% of your suites like that and split the other 50% to classic (SDI) set up (depending on customer base). That eases up your ROI pressure and offers more flexibility.
All prices are rough and you need more then one suite.

I think Ford swallowed up Mazda a couple of years ago. That...worries me.

Quote
Mike
Not to hijack this thread, but what the heck; Nick, how many of your friends are looking at going the Davinci Resolve route? Any finish in Smoke?

ok, mike, i'll be your partner in crime.

i spoke with 3 small-ish facilities, mainly about DaVinci. lets call them A,B ad C
in general most are interested, but not as eager to jump on the bandwagon as i'd thought.
i don't know about the rest of the world, but i learnt today that DaVinci isn't available here yet.

A:
currently finishing in FCP
grading in Color.
i think they have Tangent Wave controllers, but when i graded there, the operator mainly used the mouse.

are interested in buying into DaVinci, but it's sort of a casual interest at this stage.
they recognise the value of having DaVinci as a selling point,
most of the colourists they use are Color trained (and Final Touch before that)
and haven't used DaVinci.

if the operator i had was any indication, extra hardware in the form of controllers is not a big deal for these guys.
my guess is they would get the cheaper controller (there is one isn't there?)

im pretty sure they don't use Smoke

B.
currently finishing in FCP & Nucoda
grading in Nucoda.

this guy is very up on Color (he's an official trainer), but has a Nucoda set-up and uses that.
he's always across the new gear, so will be looking into DaVinci,
although he'd want do it with the 30K controller, so he may demo that but maybe not buy into it yet.

i bumped into him shortly after he got given a Smoke for Mac to trail / demo and he didn't love it was my impression.

C.
currently finishing in FCP
grading in Color, using Tangent Wave interface

definitely interested in DaVinci, as it's important to have the newest, greatest tools to offer.
or to be SEEN to, at any rate. He says that looking into both, there are some things color can do that DaVinci cant.

he also pointed out that DaVinci requires a certain graphics card on Mac Systems that is pretty much end of life.
this would mean for them buying gear that is close to obsolete, so a bit of a deal killer.
he said he'd wait till BlackMagic have that sorted before buying into DaVinci.

for effects they use After Effects.


so there you go, a mini round up from the antipodes.


cheers,
nick

DaVinci is supposed to ship in August, but then it was supposed to ship in July. Yeah, does require some extra heavy hardware but then what does one expect for something now $999.00 that was a gazillion dollars before. We are supposed to show the shipping DaVinci at the SuperMeet in Amsterdam in Sept.

Thanks for the great info Nick. Surprised non one is looking at Smoke, but it is a hefty price and all those tools in one is a very nice finish feature.

Michael Horton
-------------------

>It´s three softwares on one Mac.
>Invest is probably 12-15000 ? for the editing system and 3 softwares (non SDI!).

I think it depends on the set up. On a do-it-all machine, you'll want to cramp as much as you can onto it. But sometimes you'll really prefer to have a separate machine free to work on different aspects of the show. But then again, although I can live without AE on the edit machine, sometimes it does get painful.


>Surprised no one is looking at Smoke, but it is a hefty price and all those tools in one is a very
>nice finish feature.

I would definitely love to see a good comparison between the different finishing and compositing softwares as well as the pros and cons.


>there are some things color can do that DaVinci cant.

Really? I was seeing quite a lot of things that the Resolve can do that Color can't, eg. real time with audio playback and that is good when you have clients in the room. I can't say too much about it for now, though...



www.strypesinpost.com

Quote

How many of your friends are looking at going the Davinci Resolve route? Any finish in Smoke?

The word on the street I've been hearing lately is that Autodesk's astoundingly aggressive Lustre promotion has basically wiped out any interest in Resolve from people who don't base their business on creative color. You've got your Company 3s and whatnot; they're going to stick with whatever high-end color grading systems they prefer. But for the mid-sized finishing houses that want to add some kind of DI service offering and that already have Smoke, it seems that Resolve no longer holds any allure.

I'm not sure if the terms of the Autodesk promotion are confidential or not; I've heard conflicting reports. But suffice to say that if you already have a Smoke system ? Linux, not Mac ? you can add a Lustre seat to your facility for a price so low that you're going to spend more money on furniture for the room that houses it.

I'm with Nick here - it must be the Aussie way - the big post houses I know finish in FCP and Colour. Oh, except one, who uses Quantel, which my producer friend tells me is a bit of a pig, but I have no experience with.

No Smoke, no Resolve, no Lustre (erm, actually, must admit I've never heard of that one) One TVC house used to have Flame years ago, but I haven't really been there for a long time so I don't know what they're doing these days.